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Interesting: EV Car MPG Cost versus Regular Gasoline Engine MPG Cost Per 100 Miles

Balr14

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Regardless of what drives them (batteries, fuel cells, hydrogen, fusion, etc.) powering vehicles with electric motors is still preferable to ICE, simply for the advantages in packaging and simplicity. They don't need a transmission, you can attach an electric motor to as many wheels as you wish, they don't take up much space, no cats to steal, few moving parts.... and the list goes on.

It's only a matter of time before they resolve the battery and charging issues.
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DougS550

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Thanks.


So here's my issues with those numbers. Besides being off by 187 Billion KWH, it's stated as NET usage (which makes more sense than stating GROSS) but my problem is that it apparently doesn't take into account the forms of power required to service/maintain the various "green" plants.

Solar farms and batteries for instance exert a HUGE ecological toll. Strip mining to extract the various precious metals, refining and transport of said metals, so forth and so on are a cost that most don't care to understand.

Hell, look at the limited life of solar panels and the amount that aren't being recycled which just adds to the problem.

Green energy is being sold as a cure all and that's a flat out lie.
Halleluiah Amen, I couldn't have said that any better. As I always tell my children on things such as Windmills, Solar Panels, EV cars ETC, Always, Always "FOLLOW THE MONEY" And that will take you to the real reason why and the People or country(s) who will benefit the most.
 

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While I agree it's not very green to just build hundreds of millions more things to replace existing ones, the math isn't as simple as just adding up the total theoretical peak demand. Most people do not drive 100 miles per day, so their energy usage won't be nearly that high. There's also the factor of the tradeoffs of phasing out gas cars and their requisite logistical network. It takes a lot of diesel to deliver gas to customers, as well as a lot of electricity to pump and refine crude out of the ground. Refineries do use a lot of their base stock waste to create their own electricity to not completely rely on the main grid, but it's still a sizable amount. While refineries won't just close with a lack of gas cars (too many other useful byproducts), the energy demands of the oil network will still be diminished significantly.

My point boils down to the fact the energy use is still baked in as the cost of modern living, we'll just need more electricity generation to replace energy currently provided by combustion. In the end I wouldn't be surprised if the efficiency gains of electric cars and the electric transportation network make a net gain over our current system, despite having to bring tons of new generation online. I obviously don't think it's going to happen by 2035 even if it does happen, but if EV's 10 years from now are as much improved as they are compared to 10 years ago, it will be a compelling purchase for many assuming costs are kept in check.
That is true, but the point is to highlight how much energy would have to be dedicated to EVs. Let's ignore the 100mi. Use the national average with is something like 35mi/day. You still need 3TWh just dedicated to EVs. That is 75% of current generating capacity. In order to provide stable, secure power under all operating conditions with that type of increase, you still need to double the infrastructure. In fact, the first case requires a tripling, not a doubling.

I totally agree with you that EVs could be compelling for many. But costs do not go down on car models over time. They will have to make cheaper versions to increase adoption in any meaningful way.

We may be talking about different aspects of the whole situation. My primary point is to help highlight the absurdity surrounding the green ideology as posited by pundits and activists. I'm not specifically hating on EVs, or that we can ignore the abuses of natural resources perpetrated by various industries, including the current oil industry (it was not always that way).

I just want to get people thinking at a very basic, high level with the simplest numbers in order to establish a frame of reference. It is not to perfectly analyze the whole situation, because you don't actually need to in order to understand what will happen. Its a basic common sense sanity check.

Case in point, assume a theoretically perfectly efficient manufacturing process for EVs. You still can't avoid having to double energy production so any argument related to CO2 emissions has exploded before it even left the hangar. You may see net gains in efficiency for a specific process, but the broader argument still falls apart since net energy usage goes up. Unless you can actually reduce net global energy usage, the argument for making changes to save the planet is dead from that specific perspective. However, the increased self awareness of people and how they interact with their environment is good! And, I would like to think this is the actual goal, and not some conspiracy to take over global energy supply by a bunch of guys in Davos discussing population control :)
 
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Dark Side

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Regardless of what drives them (batteries, fuel cells, hydrogen, fusion, etc.) powering vehicles with electric motors is still preferable to ICE, simply for the advantages in packaging and simplicity. They don't need a transmission, you can attach an electric motor to as many wheels as you wish, they don't take up much space, no cats to steal, few moving parts.... and the list goes on.

It's only a matter of time before they resolve the battery and charging issues.
"Preferrable" is situational at best. Preferrable now? or in 20 years when the batteries won't have to be replaced every few years at a substantial percentage of what the vehicle is worth new?

Sure, you can make the down the road argument of economy of scale; but you'd be forgetting a huge frame of reference that until the vehicle is affordable for the common man, VERY few people will bite. I'd wager that the biggest reasons EVs sold as well as they did was the subsidies.

And you have to remember that until we can come up with a better way of mining/refining the metal and recycling damn near every piece, we're replacing one evil with another.
 

Balr14

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"Preferrable" is situational at best. Preferrable now? or in 20 years when the batteries won't have to be replaced every few years at a substantial percentage of what the vehicle is worth new?

Sure, you can make the down the road argument of economy of scale; but you'd be forgetting a huge frame of reference that until the vehicle is affordable for the common man, VERY few people will bite. I'd wager that the biggest reasons EVs sold as well as they did was the subsidies.

And you have to remember that until we can come up with a better way of mining/refining the metal and recycling damn near every piece, we're replacing one evil with another.
I agree. But, progress and change are inevitable. The arguments being made for ICE are probably like those made for horse drawn vehicles 120 years ago.
 

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Dark Side

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I agree. But, progress and change are inevitable. The arguments being made for ICE are probably like those made for horse drawn vehicles 120 years ago.
Sure, but change just for the sake of change is and always will be a foolish idea. We need a proper and intelligent way forward, not some half baked politically driven ideology AND it has to be affordable. Look into the history of gas powered vehicles. Horse drawn carriages were still the reigning champ until it became affordable for the common man to adopt gas. Every single technology is the same way.
 

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This is yet another thread about an yet another click bait article based on the same study that included time you spend driving to charging station, time you take to connect plug to your EV and some more nonsense into EV costs. Go look at the study and also think about why it has been done by a consulting company (or rather who could possibly pay for it - since they sure as hell didn't do it for free).

https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.c...world-cost-of-fueling-evs-and-ice-vehicles-2/

^^^^ here's the actual study. It sure had the effect it was supposed to as bunch of people now trumphiantly post how EVs are more expensive to refuel (nevermind they're better than ICE cars at just about everything cars are supposed to be) without ever reading the details.
I think we could debate about EVs being better at car stuff than ICE powered vehicles. If they were, no one would want ICE vehicles.

I want to drive 600 miles. Which type of vehicle is better?

I live in an apartment with no garage. Which type of vehicle will function better for me?

I have a very low budget and want to buy something inexpensive and reliable. Which is better?

It's really cold here. Which type of vehicle is better?

I have 200,000 miles on my vehicle and it is all original with no parts replaced on it yet. Which type of vehicle will get me a better resale value?

EV is typically not better.

Regardless of what drives them (batteries, fuel cells, hydrogen, fusion, etc.) powering vehicles with electric motors is still preferable to ICE, simply for the advantages in packaging and simplicity. They don't need a transmission, you can attach an electric motor to as many wheels as you wish, they don't take up much space, no cats to steal, few moving parts.... and the list goes on.

It's only a matter of time before they resolve the battery and charging issues.
There's no benefit to an EV being simpler unless it costs less to purchase and maintain. Right now, automakers are charging a premium for EVs.

I think probably either EVs really aren't simpler even though they seem like they might be to the layman, or automakers are overcharging for them. Either way, it's not an argument that works to convince a buyer.
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