How is tesla the most valuable car company ever?

[Briebee72]

I mean I know technically it is , Its market value... blah blah.. But a Car company that only delivered 165k cars WORLDWIDE in comparison lets say Honda who delivered 325k Civics alone to just the US is considered the most valuable? It hold less than 3% of the total car market and delivered less cars than any other mainstream model let alone an entire line from other automakers. This is just a lot of people making a lot of money from trading paper cause it sure as heck aint off selling cars. and on a company that had a declining quarterly net income of less than a billion.

This is why everything is so expensive and reaching unaffordable levels cause prices keep rising to pay all these people who do nothing but trade paper and jack up company values to unrealistic levels.

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[shogun32]

on a company that had a declining quarterly net income of less than a billion.

and hasn't made one red cent in profit for 10 years running.

 

[Hack]

I mean I know technically it is , Its market value... blah blah.. But a Car company that only delivered 165k cars WORLDWIDE in comparison lets say Honda who delivered 325k Civics alone to just the US is considered the most valuable? It hold less than 3% of the total car market and delivered less cars than any other mainstream model let alone an entire line from other automakers. This is just a lot of people making a lot of money from trading paper cause it sure as heck aint off selling cars. and on a company that had a declining quarterly net income of less than a billion.

This is why everything is so expensive and reaching unaffordable levels cause prices keep rising to pay all these people who do nothing but trade paper and jack up company values to unrealistic levels.

Jacking up company values doesn't increase the price of consumer items. High taxes on corporations is what does that. Basically the government says that companies are evil and they tax them heavily. However, the corporations need to make money to stay in business - so they just pass the cost of taxes along to the consumer.

But I 100% agree that Tesla is an indicator of big problems in our society. I have no problem with private investors supporting a business that doesn't know how to make money. However, it kills me that the government is taking money out of our pockets to prop up Tesla.

 

[Briebee72]

Jacking up company values doesn't increase the price of consumer items. High taxes on corporations is what does that. Basically the government says that companies are evil and they tax them heavily. However, the corporations need to make money to stay in business - so they just pass the cost of taxes along to the consumer.

But I 100% agree that Tesla is an indicator of big problems in our society. I have no problem with private investors supporting a business that doesn't know how to make money. However, it kills me that the government is taking money out of our pockets to prop up Tesla.

How do you think those stock investors get paid? The same stock investors who keep wanting returns on the stocks and when a stock goes from 35 dollars to 440 dollars where do you think that money comes from? From increasing the cost of the consumer goods being sold. Why do you think Elon wanted to take the company privet again. One so he would have full control but also because stocks can make or break a company not taxes. IN 2018, 60, fortune 500 companies including Amazon paid ZERO federal taxes. Apple is as big as it is because of its stocks There are 5,213,840,000 shares of apple stock in the world all at 300 dollars a share and every one of those people want the price to increase and their money to get bigger. How can a company keep giving returns on a number that large... well you sell a 50 dollar cell phone for 1200 dollars or a personal computer half the power of a 400 dollar windows desktop for 4000.00 thats how. LIke I said its all because of people trading paper that the rest of us suffer such high prices.

Even in that lawsuit Elon was just in he stated in court he actually had very little wealth in cash. It's all tied up in fictional paper stocks. Its got very little to do with taxes.

But on taxes I do agree that the government taking our tax dollars to supplement electric car buyers is complete BULL. Why should my tax money be helping buy your car for you?

 

[cib24]

Those people that trade these stocks are basically beating out other people who are selling the paper.

Even though Tesla hasn't made any profit and sells so few cars, the stock price is representative of the company's potential growth and the fact that they continue to gain momentum.

I wonder if this stock is going to be just like Amazon all those years ago when they were also trading at a stupid 80-100x P/E ratio and not making any money, yet the company slowly took over the world and today the stock is worth US$1,800 per share.

I think the market is generally overheating anyway as every single stock and index all over the world seems to be rising and rising, as is Gold. If you can time the market and make some more before the next recession then more power to you!

I often have this thought that the next recession is going to be due to sub-prime car loans this time, not mortgages. The type of finance they hand out on cars nowadays is crazy with the lease deals, interest-only on certain super cars and collector cars, people taking out 84 month loans at >5% interest and shit like that. It can't possibly be sustainable, but the questions are if the markets will crash and when. No idea.

 

[Briebee72]

Those people that trade these stocks are basically beating out other people who are selling the paper.

Even though Tesla hasn't made any profit and sells so few cars, the stock price is representative of the company's potential growth and the fact that they continue to gain momentum.

I wonder if this stock is going to be just like Amazon all those years ago when they were also trading at a stupid 80-100x P/E ratio and not making any money, yet the company slowly took over the world and today the stock is worth US$1,800 per share.

I think the market is generally overheating anyway as every single stock and index all over the world seems to be rising and rising, as is Gold. If you can time the market and make some more before the next recession then more power to you!

I often have this thought that the next recession is going to be due to sub-prime car loans this time, not mortgages. The type of finance they hand out on cars nowadays is crazy with the lease deals, interest-only on certain super cars and collector cars, people taking out 84 month loans at >5% interest and shit like that. It can't possibly be sustainable, but the questions are if the markets will crash and when. No idea.

I can agree with the car loan bust. I live in an area where the median income is about 36,000 PER HOUSEHOLD not person. everyone driving around in cars that all have some sort of damage cause they cant afford to fix it or get a new car. The ones with new cars all have crazy payments and are basically car poor. 700, 800 even up to 1000 a month with insurance some people pay for cars each month. Its not sustainable. Used car lots have cars 10 plus years old for well over 6,000 and im talking basic econo cars nothing great. Car prices are stupid expensive and again its because of stocks. Since electric cars started coming on they are way cheaper to produce yet their prices are higher. Before anyone argues that they are not cheaper... you got a battery sled with the batteries wheels and an electric motor (tech that has been around since the beginning of electricity it's not hard or expensive to make) they bolt a couple seats on it and a shell done a electric car. They are so cheap to make in fact that about what 40 electric car companies have started popping up. yet the costs of the end consumer product it nuts because they have to pay the investors back with interest and then make stockholders happy with increased profits. And a 12k car becomes a 60k car. Put all this together and cars will be the next big downfall of the economy.

There was a think while ago I read that tried to say people keep cars longer now due to the fact the are built so well.... um no people keep them so long now because they don't have much choice and they cost so much.

 

[Weather Man]

Hype.

 

[Hack]

How do you think those stock investors get paid? The same stock investors who keep wanting returns on the stocks and when a stock goes from 35 dollars to 440 dollars where do you think that money comes from? From increasing the cost of the consumer goods being sold. Why do you think Elon wanted to take the company privet again. One so he would have full control but also because stocks can make or break a company not taxes. IN 2018, 60, fortune 500 companies including Amazon paid ZERO federal taxes. Apple is as big as it is because of its stocks There are 5,213,840,000 shares of apple stock in the world all at 300 dollars a share and every one of those people want the price to increase and their money to get bigger. How can a company keep giving returns on a number that large... well you sell a 50 dollar cell phone for 1200 dollars or a personal computer half the power of a 400 dollar windows desktop for 4000.00 thats how. LIke I said its all because of people trading paper that the rest of us suffer such high prices.

Even in that lawsuit Elon was just in he stated in court he actually had very little wealth in cash. It's all tied up in fictional paper stocks. Its got very little to do with taxes.

But on taxes I do agree that the government taking our tax dollars to supplement electric car buyers is complete BULL. Why should my tax money be helping buy your car for you?

The price of Tesla stock and the dividends for it don't impact me because I don't own Tesla stock. The price of Tesla stock (like any other stock) comes from an agreement between the buyer and seller.

Just like if I try to sell you my car for $100,000 and you say no - my car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Exactly the same thing as Tesla and every other stock on the market. People are paying high prices for Tesla stock because they think someday Tesla stock will go to the moon and they will make lots of money on it.

There's nothing artificial about Tesla stock prices. Other than Musk is a scammer that has lots of people fooled. But the world is full of scammers that get people to buy stuff they don't need. Nothing unusual there.

 

[shogun32]

Car prices are stupid expensive and again its because of stocks.

no, because of the Fed and rampant money printing behind zero-bound interest rates. When an investment bank can get loans from the Fed for ~zero what are they supposed to do with the money? buy stock or issue debt to people who have no business buying anything. Even if stocks only made 2% in a year, that's all pure profit. Just like in housing when "free money" was chasing a relatively inflexible supply of goods, prices went up like a rocket. Till it was time to make good on the loan payment. The Fed has blown serial bubbles. It was tech stocks in the 90's, during the 80's out of control mergers and acquisitions thru cheap bonds, then it was houses. Now it's autos and tuition. If the next correction is allowed to happen it'll be epic - make 1929 look like a piker.

I used to be an Amazon employee. I have no problem with a company that plows all *excess* (what would typically be used for dividends) into R&D and capital expense and netting out to zero profit. Musk is the opposite. He's LOSING money big time and needs an unceasing flow of new investment cash just to keep the doors open. Ford pays a handsome dividend bouncing around at $9/share. Musk should be a $1 stock at best. In Amazon's case investors are under the delusion they will be eventually be rewarded with dividends. It won't happen unless Bezos and Jasse are no longer. Amazon deserves to be broken apart and fined mercilessly for illegal tying, monopolistic practice, sales tax fraud, and other violations of 100yr old law from back in the Robber Barrons' days. Hell the USG blew ATT apart for less.

Tesla stock price has no relationship with reality. It's just people selling to a greater fool, each hoping to do the same to the next guy. I damn well wish I had backed up the truck when Apple stock was trading at single-digits.

 

[Briebee72]

The price of Tesla stock and the dividends for it don't impact me because I don't own Tesla stock. The price of Tesla stock (like any other stock) comes from an agreement between the buyer and seller.

Just like if I try to sell you my car for $100,000 and you say no - my car is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Exactly the same thing as Tesla and every other stock on the market. People are paying high prices for Tesla stock because they think someday Tesla stock will go to the moon and they will make lots of money on it.

There's nothing artificial about Tesla stock prices. Other than Musk is a scammer that has lots of people fooled. But the world is full of scammers that get people to buy stuff they don't need. Nothing unusual there.

I think you miss the point of what I was saying. Ill just leave it at that

 

[Briebee72]

no, because of the Fed and rampant money printing behind zero-bound interest rates. When an investment bank can get loans from the Fed for ~zero what are they supposed to do with the money? buy stock or issue debt to people who have no business buying anything. Even if stocks only made 2% in a year, that's all pure profit. Just like in housing when "free money" was chasing a relatively inflexible supply of goods, prices went up like a rocket. Till it was time to make good on the loan payment. The Fed has blown serial bubbles. It was tech stocks in the 90's, during the 80's out of control mergers and acquisitions thru cheap bonds, then it was houses. Now it's autos and tuition. If the next correction is allowed to happen it'll be epic - make 1929 look like a piker.

I used to be an Amazon employee. I have no problem with a company that plows all *excess* (what would typically be used for dividends) into R&D and capital expense and netting out to zero profit. Musk is the opposite. He's LOSING money big time and needs an unceasing flow of new investment cash just to keep the doors open. Ford pays a handsome dividend bouncing around at $9/share. Musk should be a $1 stock at best. In Amazon's case investors are under the delusion they will be eventually be rewarded with dividends. It won't happen unless Bezos and Jasse are no longer. Amazon deserves to be broken apart and fined mercilessly for illegal tying, monopolistic practice, sales tax fraud, and other violations of 100yr old law from back in the Robber Barrons' days. Hell the USG blew ATT apart for less.

Tesla stock price has no relationship with reality. It's just people selling to a greater fool, each hoping to do the same to the next guy. I damn well wish I had backed up the truck when Apple stock was trading at single-digits.

I love people who blame government for everything. I could make a post about my penis and somehow people will turn it political. Am I saying the government doesn't cause a slight rise in product cost, No , I know it does but I can promise you that stock prices and paying dividends and all that is associated with stocks in a company control the price of a product not what the government does so much. How does anything the government do make a company that produces a item, lets stay for 3 dollars, make them sell it for 2000. It doesn't. but making stockholders happy and money and investors happy and money well that comes from profits which come from the selling price of a product. it's directly related. Just like when you see those greedy bastards on shark tank sit there and brag they make an item for 5 bucks and sell it for 250.00 there is no government controlling that , they are having to repay investors and stockholders.

Back to my example of apple. do you really think that if apple did not have 5.2 billion shares of stock it had to show profits on at 300 a share. I think it comes to something like 1.5 trillion no idea my calculator does not go that high. That cell phones would cost 50 bucks and not 1200? Government has nothing to do with that. that's 1.5 trillion in BS paper made up money that has nothing to do with cell phones. Just rich people making more money by doing nothing.

 

[Briebee72]

Anyway thanks guys didn't come here for a political debate so Ill bowing out of this convo. Thanks for all your replies.

 

[shogun32]

I love people who blame government for everything

uhh, the Fed is no more federal than FedEx. It's a private cartel of investment banks. Interest rates properly belong in the vicinity of 7-12%. There is a mindboggling amount of mal-investment across the globe. Many, many trillions worth.

Apple sells a product at the price the market will bear. Nobody sits in a room conjuring up unit price based on "let's see how much profit do we want to make this quarter and goose our earnings report and see our stock double over the next year. Got the figure Frank? Ok, divide that by number of iPhones we might be able to sell - QED price of iPhone 11." That's not remotely how this works.

Here let me help you out.
https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/aapl

The dividend is crap. The P/E isn't bad. Apple has so much cash they could buy a few countries outright and if I recall correctly run the world's biggest investment fund by a mile. Why don't they put their money to benefiial use and invest in US-based manufacturing instead of keeping it concentrated in the hell hole that is China? Or pick another sociallly acceptable country like say Poland, or Hungary, heck why not Spain or Italy. Because the iphone 11 Max would cost more than the $450 it currently does if they have to deal with stupid, clumsy Americans, labor rand environment egs, dastardly unions, having to pay real wages, medical and pension benefits, despite selling it for $1500 a pop.

BTW selling a product at a 3x multiple is actually low.

 

[Hack]

I think you miss the point of what I was saying. Ill just leave it at that

I'm definitely missing something, but if you don't want to explain it...

 

[Hack]

I mean I know technically it is , Its market value... blah blah.. But a Car company that only delivered 165k cars WORLDWIDE in comparison lets say Honda who delivered 325k Civics alone to just the US is considered the most valuable? It hold less than 3% of the total car market and delivered less cars than any other mainstream model let alone an entire line from other automakers. This is just a lot of people making a lot of money from trading paper cause it sure as heck aint off selling cars. and on a company that had a declining quarterly net income of less than a billion.

This is why everything is so expensive and reaching unaffordable levels cause prices keep rising to pay all these people who do nothing but trade paper and jack up company values to unrealistic levels.

I can agree with the car loan bust. I live in an area where the median income is about 36,000 PER HOUSEHOLD not person. everyone driving around in cars that all have some sort of damage cause they cant afford to fix it or get a new car. The ones with new cars all have crazy payments and are basically car poor. 700, 800 even up to 1000 a month with insurance some people pay for cars each month. Its not sustainable. Used car lots have cars 10 plus years old for well over 6,000 and im talking basic econo cars nothing great. Car prices are stupid expensive and again its because of stocks. Since electric cars started coming on they are way cheaper to produce yet their prices are higher. Before anyone argues that they are not cheaper... you got a battery sled with the batteries wheels and an electric motor (tech that has been around since the beginning of electricity it's not hard or expensive to make) they bolt a couple seats on it and a shell done a electric car. They are so cheap to make in fact that about what 40 electric car companies have started popping up. yet the costs of the end consumer product it nuts because they have to pay the investors back with interest and then make stockholders happy with increased profits. And a 12k car becomes a 60k car. Put all this together and cars will be the next big downfall of the economy.

There was a think while ago I read that tried to say people keep cars longer now due to the fact the are built so well.... um no people keep them so long now because they don't have much choice and they cost so much.

I think that car/truck prices are high because people buy the expensive cars. If no one bought the expensive cars, the manufacturers would make fewer expensive cars. And if people bought tons of the cheap cars, the manufacturers would make more of them.

But people just don't buy as many of the cheap cars. So the car manufacturers are giving people what they want - expensive cars.

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