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Help a new driver! Spirited driving, traction control & sliding for a noob driver

oldbmwfan

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Hey guys! it's me, the OP!
So I found a driving school near me, its Skip Barber Racing School.
Does anybody have experience with that specific course? The cost is $2195 for a one-day school.
that is a lot of money... is it worth it? below is the class description:

The One Day Racing School is the perfect program for the person new to racing. This day long experience allows the driver to experience our race prepared school cars on the race track. This school begins with an in-depth classroom session going over the racing line and vehicle dynamics. You will then build your car control skills in our vehicle dynamics drills. The program rapidly picks up the pace as you experience the thrill these high horsepower, high grip race cars with lead follow laps on the race track!
Those arrive and drive events are very nice and very expensive. If you want to learn to drive your car, in my opinion the best way is to get track time in your car. I see you're in coastal CA. I'd look at the websites of any track within a 5-hour drive and look at their schedules. Look for "Driving school" or "High performance driving event" or similar with the following organizations:
Porsche Club of America (PCA)
BMW CCA
Audi Club NA

All three clubs do in-car instruction for novices, give a fair amount of track time per weekend (usually 3-4 sessions of 20-30 minutes per day), and have pretty rigorous instructor training programs, so you get someone who actually knows how to instruct in the right seat. That is the fastest way to get comfortable and learn the basics so that you are safe and knowledgeable on track. The speed follows from there with practice.

Caution: this is addictive, so if you haven't socked away several $K for the next few years to play with your car the way it was meant to be used, better start!
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Wildcardfox

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THX 138

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IMHO, $2,195 for a 1-day school is too much. The Skip Barber schools are well-known, but if what youā€™re looking for is better control of YOUR car, Iā€™d spend 1/4 of that amount instead, and get personalized instruction from a qualified instructor in your own car at a local PCA, BMWCCA, or Audi club event.
 

Rose City R

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Hey guys! it's me, the OP!
So I found a driving school near me, its Skip Barber Racing School.
Does anybody have experience with that specific course? The cost is $2195 for a one-day school.
that is a lot of money... is it worth it? below is the class description:

The One Day Racing School is the perfect program for the person new to racing. This day long experience allows the driver to experience our race prepared school cars on the race track. This school begins with an in-depth classroom session going over the racing line and vehicle dynamics. You will then build your car control skills in our vehicle dynamics drills. The program rapidly picks up the pace as you experience the thrill these high horsepower, high grip race cars with lead follow laps on the race track!
Driving schools are a good way to learn and improve, but they are pricey.

I would recommend autocross to start. It is much cheaper and you will learn most of the skills necessary. Find out what groups in your area sponsor autocross events. Most of these organizations will have experienced drivers that serve as instructors.

When I started autocrossing many years ago, I would have an instructor with me constantly. I learned much and discovered the best instructors will bend over backwards to help you improve.

Now, I am an instructor for two autocross organizations. I get a kick out of paying it forward and helping others learn the sport.
 

bigmixx

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Great advice above re. instruction, tire temps, and feeling out limits. I'll reinforce 2 things and add a note as a long-time RWD driver who also has been on track in FWD platforms also.

Reinforce 1: you can't really get anywhere NEAR the limits of a GT350 on a public roadway without being a hazard to others. Period. If you are sliding a GT350 on the street, you are creating real risk for the safety of others. It takes real speed and real thrust to overcome the mechanical grip of these cars. In fact, that's the main reason why I think the GT350 (and every other super-performance car) is a little LESS fun on the road than slower cars. You can enjoy the noise and the thrust, but to really feel the handling, it's just dangerous. Take it to a track.

Reinforce 2: cold tires + high power + steering angle is a bad blend. Warm up the engine and the tires and your brain before pushing, and on the street, do not try to find cornering limits. Accelerate hard, brake hard, corner briskly - that's all okay, but do not try to slide it around. (See point 1)

Now, from Mini to Shelby, you're changing 3 things: FWD to RWD, low to high power, and skinny to huge tires. These all have different effects.

FWD to RWD. In a FWD car, you can enter corners hot, lift to tuck in the nose and tighten your arc (load the front tires to improve grip, get trailing throttle oversteer in a good FWD car), and if you need to straighten out, you floor it and the FWD pulls the car straight. It's fun and easy. In a RWD car, you can get oversteer by lifting OR with adding throttle. You can't just mat the pedal to straighten out. You need to get more of your turning done early so you can power out of a turn with the wheels pointed mostly straight. Also, you need to use power to plant the rear, so you will be on-throttle more in corners, but not at 100% power

Low power to high power: in a low-power car, you can open the throttle a lot pretty much anytime except in mid corner, and it's fine. With a high-power car, the throttle becomes a rheostat, not a switch. You need power on in fast corners to keep weight on the rear tires to maintain grip, but too much power will overwhelm the rears and you will spin (this is what you experienced). Always squeeeeeze the power, never stomp it. Progressive inputs. Think of the steering and throttle as connected: more steering, less throttle allowed. You can only feed in power as you straighten the wheel. Full power when going straight ahead.

Skinny to fat tires: this is all about progressiveness. Wide, sticky tires grip more, but they also let go more suddenly. You have less sidewall height, less flex, and lower slip angles before the tire breaks loose. From the driver's seat, you will experience that as "OMG this thing sticks so well" transitioning very quickly into "OH SHT I'm sliding." Skinny tires with more sidewall are friendlier - they talk more, they make more noise, and they break away more progressively. You have a lot of time to react. To drive a high-grip car fast, you need to be anticipating the traction loss and planning for it, not just reacting when it happens - your reactions will be too slow to catch the result.

Get to a track. Best investment you'll ever make.
TONS of great information right here. I'm coming from a hellcat to a mustang and all of this applies. Because the mustang handles so much better I tend to take more speed in curves and turns on the street than I should but I definitely make sure the weather is good and there's heat in the cup2s.

In the hellcat there were a few times where I ended up facing the turn I just came out of and every time it was unintentional. Tad bit too much throttle on cold tires and without warning I was spinning.

OP, just be patient when you're starting out, take time to learn the car, and always, always respect it.
 

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460Fred

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Thanks for the reminders.
Buttonwillow and Willow Springs are pretty close.
When it cools off Iā€™m in for some Instructor Time.
Buttonwillow has sessions quite a bit.
 

ICU812

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Car control comes with time in a new to YOU platform, lay out.
After awhile you'll know what the ca will do on dry/wet roads, and how much throttle you can give it, and how to keep it on the road even with tail out.
Lifting off the throttle can be just as bad if not worse after the rear tires have lost traction (oversteer). The trick is learning how to feather the throttle once the rear is in a slide/drift to keep it manageable , and aimed where you want the car to go.
car control is a skill, find a parking lot on a day that has/had light rain, and turn the nanny controls off, and learn how to control the car and learn what the car will do, in a safe manner. in a lot with no other cars or street light poles.
 

lunatect

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IMHO, $2,195 for a 1-day school is too much. The Skip Barber schools are well-known, but if what youā€™re looking for is better control of YOUR car, Iā€™d spend 1/4 of that amount instead, and get personalized instruction from a qualified instructor in your own car at a local PCA, BMWCCA, or Audi club event.
I agree. I used to instruct at BMW CCA driving schools while I was club racing a BMW. The BMW schools (one weekend at a race track) are very good and a deal as far as cost.
 

Dana Pants

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Go to motorsportsreg.com

register for nearest autocross

rinse, lather, repeat
 

Norm Peterson

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Hi all, For the past 8 years I have been driving a 1.6L Mini Cooper JCW, which controls really really well.
I am brand new to RWD, V8, Cup2s, and Mustangs.

I drive like a maniac, and Mini's do not slide easily.

The other day I drove my Mustang with some spirit. and entering the freeway, (rolling left turn in 2nd gear), I slid... got sideways... NEARLY crashed like a Mustang leaving cars & coffee.

Since then, I don't really trust the traction control.. it was ON.
Are the Cup2's typically slippery?

What is the best way for me to get practice throwing my car around?
Is traction control trustworthy?
What's a better tire for street driving?
TIA
If you haven't seen these before . . . or as a refresher if you have . . . no flame intended; it's just that there's no point in trying to sugar-coat these items.

#1 . . . DO NOT RELY ON TRACTION CONTROL TO DO WHAT YOU SHOULD BE DOING FOR YOURSELF. That's the wrong attitude to take regarding a system that is only intended to remedy UNEXPECTED losses of traction or stability.

#2 . . . forget everything you ever learned from driving small-displacement FWD cars. It's wrong for powerful RWD cars.

#3 . . . forget about things like "instant throttle response" and fierce straight line acceleration (especially when exiting corners or in the rain) for now. Smooth throttle inputs only, please. No more stomping on it.


Norm
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