Help a new driver! Spirited driving, traction control & sliding for a noob driver

[Teezlr]

Find an empty parking lot when it rains and practice doing controlled slides, start with a donut and increase in radius as you get better. Only way to learn is to practice, didn’t say it was legal but hard to learn what to do when that car breaks loose without practicing what to do when the car breaks loose.

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[Norm Peterson]

One of the very best books i've read so far is "Speed Secrets, the lost are of high performance driving" by Ross Bentley. He talks a LOT about practicing the principles of HPD whenever you are driving no matter what the circumstance or situation- for most of us it is in the daily commute.

When you come right down to it, the biggest differences (in just the driving part, not the variety of risks involved) between road driving and road course driving are the speeds involved and the width of your lane vs the width of the track.


Norm

 

[THX 138]

I highly recommend finding the local Audi club chapter near you and sign up for their HDPE. They have a great educational and instructor system and they don't care that you don't have an Audi. At least 50% of the cars at Audi club HDPE evens are not Audis, likely more.

I'd include the Porsche clubs in this group as well. PCA is a lot more common in some areas... I'm not sure if there is an Audi club near me, and if there is, they don't do HPDE's around here. All PCA instructors have to take a full-day class that's put on by an instructor from the National PCA and get approved before they can instruct at a PCA event, too. But like he says above, probably half of the cars at the PCA HPDE events I've attended have been cars other than Porsches.

 

[jmn444]

I'd include the Porsche clubs in this group as well. PCA is a lot more common in some areas... I'm not sure if there is an Audi club near me, and if there is, they don't do HPDE's around here. All PCA instructors have to take a full-day class that's put on by an instructor from the National PCA and get approved before they can instruct at a PCA event, too. But like he says above, probably half of the cars at the PCA HPDE events I've attended have been cars other than Porsches.

same w/ bmw clubs, they all seem to have strong education components to their events available. Just see what's avail nearby and run with it!

 

[oldbmwfan]

Great advice above re. instruction, tire temps, and feeling out limits. I'll reinforce 2 things and add a note as a long-time RWD driver who also has been on track in FWD platforms also.

Reinforce 1: you can't really get anywhere NEAR the limits of a GT350 on a public roadway without being a hazard to others. Period. If you are sliding a GT350 on the street, you are creating real risk for the safety of others. It takes real speed and real thrust to overcome the mechanical grip of these cars. In fact, that's the main reason why I think the GT350 (and every other super-performance car) is a little LESS fun on the road than slower cars. You can enjoy the noise and the thrust, but to really feel the handling, it's just dangerous. Take it to a track.

Reinforce 2: cold tires + high power + steering angle is a bad blend. Warm up the engine and the tires and your brain before pushing, and on the street, do not try to find cornering limits. Accelerate hard, brake hard, corner briskly - that's all okay, but do not try to slide it around. (See point 1)

Now, from Mini to Shelby, you're changing 3 things: FWD to RWD, low to high power, and skinny to huge tires. These all have different effects.

FWD to RWD. In a FWD car, you can enter corners hot, lift to tuck in the nose and tighten your arc (load the front tires to improve grip, get trailing throttle oversteer in a good FWD car), and if you need to straighten out, you floor it and the FWD pulls the car straight. It's fun and easy. In a RWD car, you can get oversteer by lifting OR with adding throttle. You can't just mat the pedal to straighten out. You need to get more of your turning done early so you can power out of a turn with the wheels pointed mostly straight. Also, you need to use power to plant the rear, so you will be on-throttle more in corners, but not at 100% power

Low power to high power: in a low-power car, you can open the throttle a lot pretty much anytime except in mid corner, and it's fine. With a high-power car, the throttle becomes a rheostat, not a switch. You need power on in fast corners to keep weight on the rear tires to maintain grip, but too much power will overwhelm the rears and you will spin (this is what you experienced). Always squeeeeeze the power, never stomp it. Progressive inputs. Think of the steering and throttle as connected: more steering, less throttle allowed. You can only feed in power as you straighten the wheel. Full power when going straight ahead.

Skinny to fat tires: this is all about progressiveness. Wide, sticky tires grip more, but they also let go more suddenly. You have less sidewall height, less flex, and lower slip angles before the tire breaks loose. From the driver's seat, you will experience that as "OMG this thing sticks so well" transitioning very quickly into "OH SHT I'm sliding." Skinny tires with more sidewall are friendlier - they talk more, they make more noise, and they break away more progressively. You have a lot of time to react. To drive a high-grip car fast, you need to be anticipating the traction loss and planning for it, not just reacting when it happens - your reactions will be too slow to catch the result.

Get to a track. Best investment you'll ever make.

 

[lunatect]

I'd include the Porsche clubs in this group as well. PCA is a lot more common in some areas... I'm not sure if there is an Audi club near me, and if there is, they don't do HPDE's around here. All PCA instructors have to take a full-day class that's put on by an instructor from the National PCA and get approved before they can instruct at a PCA event, too. But like he says above, probably half of the cars at the PCA HPDE events I've attended have been cars other than Porsches.

BMW CCA puts on great schools at tracks. Mustangs are welcome.

 

[jpro]

BMW CCA puts on great schools at tracks. Mustangs are welcome.

I've heard this from my brother in law and I am strongly considering this route to learn my car. I used to drive a 6-speed 2016 GT PP so I'm used to rear wheel V8 power (also owned a Terminator) but I definitely need to figure this car out before doing anything crazy. As I mentioned in another thread, I've owned the 350 for 2 weeks and today was the first time I flipped it into sport mode and the difference was very noticeable. I am wondering what track mode is like LOL. I'll learn to drive this thing over the next few months then examine track options and the BMW CCA is at the top of my list.

 

[svttim]

Should add, with HPDE you may want to consider the track before you decide. Some are very Technical, some very fast and there are those better left to someone with a bit more experienced, Whatever group you decide to go with can advise you

 

[brownisland]

Great advice above re. instruction, tire temps, and feeling out limits. I'll reinforce 2 things and add a note as a long-time RWD driver who also has been on track in FWD platforms also.

Reinforce 1: you can't really get anywhere NEAR the limits of a GT350 on a public roadway without being a hazard to others. Period. If you are sliding a GT350 on the street, you are creating real risk for the safety of others. It takes real speed and real thrust to overcome the mechanical grip of these cars. In fact, that's the main reason why I think the GT350 (and every other super-performance car) is a little LESS fun on the road than slower cars. You can enjoy the noise and the thrust, but to really feel the handling, it's just dangerous. Take it to a track.

Reinforce 2: cold tires + high power + steering angle is a bad blend. Warm up the engine and the tires and your brain before pushing, and on the street, do not try to find cornering limits. Accelerate hard, brake hard, corner briskly - that's all okay, but do not try to slide it around. (See point 1)

Now, from Mini to Shelby, you're changing 3 things: FWD to RWD, low to high power, and skinny to huge tires. These all have different effects.

FWD to RWD. In a FWD car, you can enter corners hot, lift to tuck in the nose and tighten your arc (load the front tires to improve grip, get trailing throttle oversteer in a good FWD car), and if you need to straighten out, you floor it and the FWD pulls the car straight. It's fun and easy. In a RWD car, you can get oversteer by lifting OR with adding throttle. You can't just mat the pedal to straighten out. You need to get more of your turning done early so you can power out of a turn with the wheels pointed mostly straight. Also, you need to use power to plant the rear, so you will be on-throttle more in corners, but not at 100% power

Low power to high power: in a low-power car, you can open the throttle a lot pretty much anytime except in mid corner, and it's fine. With a high-power car, the throttle becomes a rheostat, not a switch. You need power on in fast corners to keep weight on the rear tires to maintain grip, but too much power will overwhelm the rears and you will spin (this is what you experienced). Always squeeeeeze the power, never stomp it. Progressive inputs. Think of the steering and throttle as connected: more steering, less throttle allowed. You can only feed in power as you straighten the wheel. Full power when going straight ahead.

Skinny to fat tires: this is all about progressiveness. Wide, sticky tires grip more, but they also let go more suddenly. You have less sidewall height, less flex, and lower slip angles before the tire breaks loose. From the driver's seat, you will experience that as "OMG this thing sticks so well" transitioning very quickly into "OH SHT I'm sliding." Skinny tires with more sidewall are friendlier - they talk more, they make more noise, and they break away more progressively. You have a lot of time to react. To drive a high-grip car fast, you need to be anticipating the traction loss and planning for it, not just reacting when it happens - your reactions will be too slow to catch the result.

Get to a track. Best investment you'll ever make.

this is all great! thank you

 

[Caballus]

As @oldbmwfan (and several others) point out, because it is relatively light weight, all wheel drive, and low power, your Mini compensates when you violate the basics. At the simplest level, it's about grip. Your tires have max grip when moving in a straight line. When you change directions or brake (i.e., shift weight), the grip is no longer evenly distributed among the four tires. The easiest to remember analogy is probably the "string theory," pasted below with a couple links--second link has pictures:

"Throttle and Acceleration
I’ve already repeated this a few times with regard to braking and steering; however, being smooth is possibly the most important aspect of applying the throttle.

It does depend on how powerful your car is, and how much grip it has, but it is always the best practice to be as smooth as possible.

Your car’s tyres only have a certain amount of grip; if this grip is being used completely by cornering (lateral forces), there’s no room for acceleration (longitudinal forces).

So, before you can begin accelerating out of a corner, you must begin to reduce the steering angle.

The simplest way to think about this is to imagine that there is a piece of string from the position of your left hand on the steering wheel to the top of the accelerator pedal.

Now imagine you have 90 degrees of steering angle, you’re off the throttle pedal completely, and the string is taut. In order to accelerate, you must release the tension on the string, which is possible only when you reduce the steering angle. This means that as you open up the steering more, you can accelerate more.

This concept continues proportionally until the steering is completely straight and it’s possible to use 100% of the throttle."

https://driver61.com/resources/track-day-guide/

https://boxthislap.org/trail-braking-the-string-theory/

 

[526 HRSE]

By LEARNING the car which is what the OP is asking. Dont be an idiot.

Too late.

 

[526 HRSE]

The car slides very easily. You have to learn the car, but when in doubt, don't drive like a dummy or you'll be wondering why it's wrapped around a telephone pole. If you want to drive like a maniac, get your Mini back before you kill someone.

 

[firestarter2]

Hi all, For the past 8 years I have been driving a 1.6L Mini Cooper JCW, which controls really really well.
I am brand new to RWD, V8, Cup2s, and Mustangs.

I drive like a maniac, and Mini's do not slide easily.

The other day I drove my Mustang with some spirit. and entering the freeway, (rolling left turn in 2nd gear), I slid... got sideways... NEARLY crashed like a Mustang leaving cars & coffee.

Since then, I don't really trust the traction control.. it was ON.
Are the Cup2's typically slippery?

What is the best way for me to get practice throwing my car around?
Is traction control trustworthy?
What's a better tire for street driving?
TIA

If you are used to driving aggressively in a FWD or AWD car a high powered RWD car will hand you your ass in short order.

Drifting = crashing.

Best way is to get some time on track learn the limits and dial it back form there for the street. The GT350 short of cold tires has so much grip you will not be able to slide it safely on the street.

 

[dpAtlanta]

That is why I have this license plate...
..

Very Clever Lorne... I like it...!!!

 

[Veteran]

Lots of good advice for the OP given.
Id like to add, auto cross etc teaches you control to get from A To B fast.
If you want to be safe though, learning to drift is your best bet.
Its all about traction management, taking it to the edge of a spin and bringing it back.
Perhaps go do a drift class or two with an instructor.

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