Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

[SVTSNAKE351]

Here’s a place where I can add some REAL information because I was there, in the room while these decisions were made. I’ve had this discussion on Camaro6 a few times. The 1997 - 2002 Camaros were awesome vehicles for their time, yet there was no 2003 - 2009. Why? Main reason is a combination of new fuel economy regulations and NHTSA crash regulations plus a general lack of cash within the company. It was time for a major update on Camaro. The F-Body platform was not capable of passing the upcoming crash requirements without a ridiculous amount of investment. So we in Product Planning started looking for existing RWD platforms that could take the Camaro and Firebird. The most obvious was the Sigma platform that launched the then new CTS. Two problems...too expensive to make a reasonably priced Camaro / Firebird and plans for upcoming vehicles off Sigma (STS, SRX, two other vehicles that eventually never happened) meant there wasn’t enough volume left to add Camaro / Firebird. So even though Sigma was everybody’s favorite for a new Camaro / Firebird, there was no way it was going to displace a Cadillac model for volume and adding a second production module made zero economic sense.

So, next option was to look down under. The Zeta platform in Australia that produced the Holden’s Monaro. One HUGE problem. Because of some import laws which I still to this day don’t really understand, import volume was capped at either 30k or 60k per year. I honestly can’t remember which. Eventually, we did import Pontiac GTO which was just a badge job on the Monaro (plus putting the steering wheel where it belonged). When Pontiac got chopped, that car became the Chevrolet SS. It was capped for volume, but that was fine for those cars. Eventually, after the Camaro Concept car was shown, the decision was made to install a duplicate module of the Zeta platform in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada and the 5th Gen was revived for 2010.

That, my friends is the Readers Digest version of the hole in Camaro’s history. It pretty much boiled down to finding the right architecture to build a reasonably priced car that could meet all the new regulations.

I find that hard to believe. As I recall people were not interested in buying a camaro or trans am, and it showed in the sales department. The car was a flop. The new one dam near is a flop.:lol::lol::lol::ford:

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[GTPower]

Can you show me on the Configurator, where the V8 Camaro gets an auto. It only shows the TURBO-banger getting the automatic.

The GM site sucks, especially on a mobile device, keep trying, it'll eventually bring up the option.

 

[Hack]

3 seconds is massive and very noticeable on track. It is more fun for me. After tracking for a while you end up at the same courses and it is obvious when you've turned a faster lap. You're right I don't track my car for money, but it costs a lot to do so and I want to have as much fun as a i can while doing it.

I've watched many youtube videos where the track lap time difference was similar to the difference in lap time between Mustang GT and Camaro SS, and the pro driver didn't know which car was faster. That's why they use a timer.

And unless the track is extremely short (less than a minute lap time) you aren't going to notice 3 seconds. It's just not believable that you would.

Fun for the majority of people has far less to do with the absolute lap time and more to do with how the car performs, how it sounds, how it makes you feel. I will explain it in an obvious way to you. Take a car with huge power and massive sticky slicks and drive it super conservatively around the track completely hooked up and with no risk of losing control at any point on the track, then take a car like yours (or mine) and drive it near its limits. Which do you think will be more fun? Do you have to know how long each of the laps took in order to answer the question? No, you don't.

 

[millhouse]

Only gonna discuss the bold print stuff. Anyone thinking that GM went from monthly to quarterly to hide Camaro sales is truly watching the tail wag the dog. Camaro is such a small part of the GM portfolio I can guarantee you the word “Camaro” was never mentioned in the meetings to discuss this change in policy. It was a business process decision pure and simple. GM doesn’t make internal decisions based on month-to-month sales, so developing and publishing monthly sales was of zero internal benefit and was done primarily for automotive analysts and press. At some point somebody pretty much said “if Tesla can get away with quarterly reports that don’t even break down sales by model, why are we doing all this work on a monthly basis?”

Maybe some poor wording on my part. The camaro sales are part of the equation, but yes…I (and many others) truly believe the switch to quarterly sales were an attempt to hide poor car sales to avoid stock fluctuations. As it stands, we are much, much less “in the know” of any market trends that GM has with their vehicles. Conspiracy theory at its finest…I know, but monthly sales have been the industry standard for quite a while and allow people to see trends much better. Any way you cut it, GM want’s to hide those trends. They claim it’s to avoid showing market fluctuations that aren’t indicative of what is “really happening “, I say bullshit.

As far as Camaro’s future? See my post above. I’m sure at some point sales COULD get low enough that GM says “we’re not making enough on this model. Pull the plug”. From what I can tell, Camaro is not at that point and not likely to be there anytime soon. The idea to build lesser option models IS intended to help boost sales, but more because the data does show that there is a portfolio gap where Mustang and Challenger have “low cost” V8 options and GM does not. The difficulty here, and the reason it hasn’t happened yet, is that the additional content in the 1SS compared to a base Mustang GT is where a lot of the higher ATP (and profit) lies. If it can be shown that offering a lower content V8 will take sales from Mustang and Challenger instead of just having 1SS and 2SS buyers buy less car, then it will happen. But if the models forecast that most of the sales will come from 1SS / 2SS buyers optioning down, then it will not happen.

In today’s market, nothing surprises me. Cadillacs (cars) aren’t doing terribly well and we’ll see here in a few days how well the camaro is faring. I’m not saying it’s all doom and gloom for the camaro, but it’s not all roses and sunshine either.

3 seconds is massive and very noticeable on track. It is more fun for me. After tracking for a while you end up at the same courses and it is obvious when you've turned a faster lap. You're right I don't track my car for money, but it costs a lot to do so and I want to have as much fun as a i can while doing it.

Yes, modding the Mustang may get you there, but as you said, I don't want to spend money aftermarket when I have another option that is done and comes with a warranty. I'd rather spend that money on more track time or something else in my life. I'm tired of having extra sets of wheels and tires stacked in the garage and having to spend time prepping a car. Different strokes I guess. Priorities have just changed.

You do realize that changing over suspension components and wheels tires maintains a warranty don’t you?

Honestly, I feel sorry for you if a 3 second delta means the difference of having fun…and not. When the next gen 1LE comes out 3 seconds faster, you’re going to be in a shithole of no-fun zone because your car is pathetically slower. Yes, heavy on the sarcasm, but in an attempt to make a point.

If you’re not tracking your car, you shouldn’t be worried about being 3 seconds faster than a competitor….you should be focusing on how to turn a better lap and improve your skills. A mazda miata offers plenty of fun and is far…far…far slower than your car.

 

[thehunterooo]

Alright dude, just knock it off already. I'm on both forums. And none of what you just posted is even being talked about over there nor has it been talked about over there in who knows how long. And I have yet to see anyone mention your name. You guys mention them way more. Especially you guy's favorite person over there. I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to be even remotely reasonable. It's like you're taking things personally. And nobody is even saying the Camaro is better. I just spent an entire post talking about how terrible GM sales tactics are. So chill out. We're all adults so let's behave like adults.

And we both know the Camaro isn't going anywhere. You can fantasize about it, pray about it, wish upon a star, or sell your soul to the Devil. The Camaro is here to stay for the foreseeable future. The Mustang outselling it does not mean the Camaro isn't selling enough to keep them afloat. How you even came to that determination is beyond me.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Benjj]

Alright dude, just knock it off already. I'm on both forums. And none of what you just posted is even being talked about over there nor has it been talked about over there in who knows how long. And I have yet to see anyone mention your name. You guys mention them way more. Especially you guy's favorite person over there. I don't understand why it's so difficult for you to be even remotely reasonable. It's like you're taking things personally. And nobody is even saying the Camaro is better. I just spent an entire post talkingthread about how terrible GM sales tactics are. So chill out. We're all adults so let's behave like adults.

And we both know the Camaro isn't going anywhere. You can fantasize about it, pray about it, wish upon a star, or sell your soul to the Devil. The Camaro is here to stay for the foreseeable future. The Mustang outselling it does not mean the Camaro isn't selling enough to keep them afloat. How you even came to that determination is beyond me.

It’s funny you said this. I’m on both sites too and this site seems to have more heavy petting and circle jerking going on when it comes to the vs. threads.

 

[bootlegger]

It’s funny you said this. I’m on both sites too and this site seems to have more heavy petting and circle jerking going on when it comes to the vs. threads.

You must have missed the numerous 2018 1/4mile threads in Camaro6. At least here most are admitting that the Camaro is a better car for a road course. When the Mustang put up equal or better drag numbers, it was excuse after excuse over there.

 

[thehunterooo]

It’s funny you said this. I’m on both sites too and this site seems to have more heavy petting and circle jerking going on when it comes to the vs. threads.

Why not update the sig to 2018 1LE? Just another troll.

 

[6String]

No one should state with a certainty that the Camaro isn't going to go away. The auto industry as a whole is remorseless when dealing with product lines. MartinJLM outlines some of the factors in the demise of the original--except for slow sales. In 2001, GM sold only 29,000 Camaros compared to Ford selling 143,000 Mustangs. To be fair, the 2001 was a short production run, because Chevy wanted a 35th Anniversary model extended run for 2002. They sold 42K. Everything depends on sales (and margin). Development costs can be huge, and in order to make a business case for spending the money for development, sales or margin has to make the case for continuing to mfg a product.

Stock holders are invested in the business--not the product. No 0-60 time or lap time at VIR makes a difference in the P&L--but sales do. (Remember, the Viper?) I liked the Holden Monaro--yes imports may have had a ceiling, but in 2004 Pontiac only sold just over 13,000 of the 18,000 planned. Despite a 50-HP boost the following year, they sold less (only about 11K). The first two years sales didn't come close to hitting any ceiling--more like the floor. That is why the Pontiac GTO died a quick death. (Followed shortly by the demise of Pontiac.)

 

[bluebeastsrt]

It’s funny you said this. I’m on both sites too and this site seems to have more heavy petting and circle jerking going on when it comes to the vs. threads.

Oh goodie. Another Camaro owner. Thanks for that wonderful insight.

 

[w3rkn]

Nothing you said here is factual. They are your opinions. Yet you're spouting it like everyone feels that way. To some people, performance is all that matters. They don't care that YOU personally think this or that is ugly or pretty. These are performance cars first and foremost. Looks are in the eyes of the beholder. And you could think the Camaro is the ugliest thing on the planet. There is someone out there who will say the same thing about the Mustang.


Well for starters that has nothing to do with the fact that Ford has been offering heavy discounts and rebates for decades. Even now the Camaro still doesn't discount their cars like Ford does. So what exactly is your point?

Correct, my opinion.

Yet mirrored the automotive world over. Backed up by the fact that auto journalist note everything I've said. Granted, not everyone feels this way, as there are a small group who have bought discounted Camaros, & are not bothered by such issues. But even an old GM exec said the Mustang is better looking than the Camaro... and he was trying to put it nicely.

You shouldn't care if it is ugly... you bought it and I am not trying to change YOUR OPINION on the car. But it seems you are trying to change other's opinion on the looks of your car. It isn't going to happen, ugly is ugly..


Subsequently, show me an automotive journalist, that has questioned the looks of the Mustang..!

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Correct, my opinion.

Yet mirrored the automotive world over. Backed up by the fact that auto journalist note everything I've said. Granted, not everyone feels this way, as there are a small group who have bought discounted Camaros, & are not bothered by such issues. But even an old GM exec said the Mustang is better looking than the Camaro... and he was trying to put it nicely.

You shouldn't care if it is ugly... you bought it and I am not trying to change YOUR OPINION on the car. But it seems you are trying to change other's opinion on the looks of your car. It isn't going to happen, ugly is ugly..


Subsequently, show me an automotive journalist, that has questioned the looks of the Mustang..!

Super Chevy magazine?:shrug:

 

[raceredftw]

Fun for the majority of people has far less to do with the absolute lap time and more to do with how the car performs, how it sounds, how it makes you feel.

Exactly. I'd put money on 99% of owners never tracking their car in the first place, even with the PP2 or 1LE package. They're for bragging rights and day to day driving fun. I would have zero interest in spending thousands of dollars on packages to make the car a second or two faster around a track when those upgrades will be nearly unnoticeable on a daily basis.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

I've watched many youtube videos where the track lap time difference was similar to the difference in lap time between Mustang GT and Camaro SS, and the pro driver didn't know which car was faster. That's why they use a timer.

And unless the track is extremely short (less than a minute lap time) you aren't going to notice 3 seconds. It's just not believable that you would.

Fun for the majority of people has far less to do with the absolute lap time and more to do with how the car performs, how it sounds, how it makes you feel. I will explain it in an obvious way to you. Take a car with huge power and massive sticky slicks and drive it super conservatively around the track completely hooked up and with no risk of losing control at any point on the track, then take a car like yours (or mine) and drive it near its limits. Which do you think will be more fun? Do you have to know how long each of the laps took in order to answer the question? No, you don't.

This is a poor analogy though. The Mustang and the Camaro have similar power. I know what you're saying but that just isn't the case here.

I've had 3 400+ HP cars that I've tracked. All GT type coupes. Each has been successively faster due to better technology and setup. Guess which one is the most fun? The fastest one, which is the current 1LE. It is more planted, has better grip, rotates better, and brakes better. That means deeper corners, faster straights, and better times. And yes, it is very noticeable. My first time out with rhe new car i turned about 10 laps in the first session and was shocked by how fast it felt. When I looked at the times I wasn't surprised to see a couple seconds shaved off because it felt like it. And yes, that means more fun to me. Maybe to a newbie that doesn't mean anything, but as people get deeper into tracking the goal is to shave time. Sometimes that is just more seat time and other times that's a new car or mods. Usually both.

 

[w3rkn]

I just don't think the SS 1LE is an ugly car. I'm not sure why you think that is some universal truth that I'm compromising on.

And what is 1% more performance anyway? The 1LE is significantly faster on a road course than a GTPP. It's not even close. GTPP2 hasn't been compared and I have yet to even see one on the street or at the track. If 1% means 1% of a laptime, then yeah, that's pretty significant to me. That's 1-2 seconds depending on the course.

And what's this cheaper car talk? It's not like the Mustang isn't in the exact same price range, unless you're talking about the 350, which I'm assuming you're not with all this 1% more performance business.

Let's face it, you just hate the Camaro and can't understand how anyone else could like it.

Its ironic that you had the 135is since those are a clear cut case of getting a cheaper, uglier car, with less utility, purely for performance reasons. Was your mental state in a bad spot when you chose that over an e92 M3 with that glorious S65 motor? So what car do you have now anyhow? You said you dont have the 135 anymore. Do you have a Mustang?

:headbonk:

I don't think you are here on these forums in earnest, like Martin is. You are here to troll. Others, along with myself have already rebutted your comments several times over.


1) Yes, the Camaro is ugly enough I would never buy one, or even drive one (if given to me). That is my opinion and sorry that it unsettles you so much. I am not the only one who feels the Camaro's design is off and awkward to the eye. Just live with it and stop bleeding all over the forums trying to defend the looks of you car...


2) The 1LE is significantly faster than a GTPP..? In who's hands..? And of course you are talking about a base 1LE, not any with options. And again, you are not comparing it to a GTPP w/magneride.. or for $810 more, the GTPP2.

There are option if you need that level of performance, but most don't because streets. You are just talking about how much cheaper it is to get a 1LE, than a Mustang at this point, not actual performance deltas.

Though it is HILARIOUS that you are trying to question performance between the two, when you couldn't run lap times yourself, consistently in your own car if you tried. You are not a professional. (Hence 1%).


3) Talking about me personally, is your attempt to try and change the topic of discussion. But I am not a fragile snowflake, so I have no issues talking about the cars I have owned.

I didn't own a 135, I owned an ultra rare 135is w/pp2.. It was a tad over $52k. I didn't care about the looks, I bought it for being subtle bomber and stroked nearly every car I came across. It also had superb visibility and something I much desire. It also had the best exhaust I've ever heard in a stock car.

The new M2, came with the same engine and same tune as the 135is. But with the announcement of the M2, Ford also announced the s550 Mustang, and also the rumor of a GT350..

Then I broke my back.

So I was relegated to my daily driver Edge Sport while I recuperated and sold my BMW last year. I am back to rowing gears on my simulator and feel confident enough to put my $56k hat back into the ring. I have test drove BMW M2, Corvette Stingray, Porsche Cayman.


I will be ordering a Mustang GT PP2 later this year for a winter delivery...

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