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Guess what? Motortrend favors the Camaro again

Norm Peterson

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Not completely. If one purchases the vehicle with an intention to slowly modify it over a number of years, sales and popularity will inform the availability of aftermarket options.
For these cars, you'll always be able to find something (aftermarket support for the 6th gen Camaro hasn't tanked, at least not that I am aware of).

If an aftermarket part doesn't quite suit you the way it comes out of the box, modify it yourself so that it does.


Norm
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Must_Tang

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I honestly couldn't care less. The 1LE is a great performing package, and we've known that for a while now. The problem is that the rest of the car is garbage. The interior design sucks and the visibility is worse. Who thought it was a good idea to have the AC vents blasting on your right hand?!? Not that I care about trunk space and all that, but have you seen the pathetic trunk opening on the Camaro? You'd be hard pressed to put a laptop through the opening. It's honestly laughable. There's a reason why the Mustang is killing the Camaro in the sales department, despite being the lesser performing car--it's simply a better car in virtually every other aspect. Stuff like trunk access and visibility matters to a LOT of people.

I also prefer the way the Mustang drives. While I can't speak for the 18 (I have a 15), the gearing in the cars is night and day. The LT1 is a great engine and has a ton of torque, but that makes it boring to drive on the street, IMO. You can honestly drive the car in 3rd gear and never have to shift. I prefer to rev up through the gears and rev-match down shifts and all that. To me, it makes the car more fun and engaging to drive. Other people are after pure numbers, and that's okay too. They can buy the 1LE.

Having a slower car from the factory just means you get to have more fun modding the car anyway! :headbang:

Yeah, I used to harp on the visibility thing and the trunk space issues, and the mullet wearing Grand Funk listening owners of the Camaro until I drove one...then bought one. The visibility issue goes away after 10 minutes of driving.

Then I took the Camaro to the track...it’s a 2SS and not a 1LE. Holy moly what a difference in handling and stability. I had modded the crap out of my 16 Mustang’s suspension and it still felt like a rocking horse. Camaro is planted everywhere on the track.

Glad I made the change.

And it’s pretty damn comfortable for the other 355 days per year I’m not tracking it.
 

martinjlm

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Yeah, I used to harp on the visibility thing and the trunk space issues, and the mullet wearing Grand Funk listening owners of the Camaro until I drove one...then bought one. The visibility issue goes away after 10 minutes of driving.

Then I took the Camaro to the track...it’s a 2SS and not a 1LE. Holy moly what a difference in handling and stability. I had modded the crap out of my 16 Mustang’s suspension and it still felt like a rocking horse. Camaro is planted everywhere on the track.

Glad I made the change.

And it’s pretty damn comfortable for the other 355 days per year I’m not tracking it.
That was my experience too. On one hand, Mustang has better visibility than Camaro. No bout a doubt it. But the Camaro’s visibility is more than adequate for how the car is used. On the other hand, Camaro V8s have better overall performance than comparable Mustang V8s. But Mustang V8s (at least PP equipped) have more performance capability than I can max out. For most buyers it really should come down to what are your priorities. Each car is more than adequate in all areas, and excel in specific areas.

For me, a 1LE would have been overkill. A 1SS or 2SS has more power and better handling than I need, but I would have more than a little fun probing my own limits. I have tracked the 2SS convertible with zero modifications or setup and had a blast doing it. Will do again, but it’s not the reason I bought the car, so 1LE or ZL1 don’t make sense for me.

And since I knew whatever I was getting would be a convertible, that quickly sealed the deal for me. Even if I were not a retired GM employee and looking to choose between GT Convertible or SS Convertible, the decision would still have been easy. I have owned 4 Mustangs during my time at GM, so I can be unbiased in making such a decision. But in this case, the better performance + no-stop drop-top + HUD made the choice a no-brainer for me. The visibility is very even between the two cars with the top down. Both cars look great with the top down. Camaro holds truer to the lines of the coupe with top up. Mustang looks more like a notchback coupe with the top up. That loses a lot of the sexy profile and aggressive stance of the coupe / fastback.
 

garagelogic

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I always thought that the GT and SS were competitors and not the GT and 1LE?? :shrug: :shrug:
Which 1LE version? There are more than one. 4cyl, 6cyl, base v8 and scv8. Anybody owning any of those could say they own a 1LE.
 

Norm Peterson

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Which 1LE version? There are more than one. 4cyl, 6cyl, base v8 and scv8. Anybody owning any of those could say they own a 1LE.
SS 1LE would be a fair assumption.

I just hope the 1LE tag doesn't get treated the same way 'SS' did and get plastered on just about anything.


Norm.
 

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martinjlm

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SS 1LE would be a fair assumption.

I just hope the 1LE tag doesn't get treated the same way 'SS' did and get plastered on just about anything.


Norm.
Very certain that won’t happen. SS had a very loose definition in the ‘90s / ‘00s. Back then it basically could apply to the highest performance trim of any Chevy model. 1LE is much better defined. It is tied to an old RPO that was only available on Camaro. Just like Z/28 and ZL1 started off as Camaro RPO codes. There was a time when Z/28 got bastardized into Z/24 and Z/71 codes for other Chevy vehicles, but that won’t happen under current company and marketing leadership.
 

millhouse

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But the Camaro’s visibility is more than adequate for how the car is used.
I took the camaro for one test drive. When I realized I had to stop 100 feet before the intersection to be able to see any stoplights without tilting my head over and ducking down, I returned it.

The visibility issue is always there...people just get numb to it. For a daily driver, visibility is important to many...and is something not worth compromising.
 

4V Mayhem

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The visibility issue, to me, is pseudo, if you will. In the Mustang you can see much more. But exactly how much you need to see to operate the vehicle safely and comfortably is up for debate. Let's use number just for argument's sake. So let's say you need 3 feet of windshield to see properly and operate a vehicle safely. And everything over 3 feet is just scenery and has no impact on vehicle operation. So let's say most vehicles offer 6 feet of windshield as standard. So you're automatically used to having excess view. Now let's say GM cuts that standard 6 feet down to 4 feet. That leaves only 1 foot of extra view but since you're used to having soo much more you feel cramped and closed in. But you can still operate the vehicle safely and properly. So to me, it isn't that the Camaro has a visibility issue, it's that we have an issue with how much we think we need to see. I've driven plenty of 6th Gen Camaros and I've whipped those bad boys in and out of traffic in daylight and at night on crowded roads without any effort. Once you realize that the visibility issue isn't real is when you'll see that it isn't even there at all.
 

4V Mayhem

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As far as sales, I wondered if the Camaro sales were low due to price and if we'll see things even out now that the Mustang has gone up. Many people who bought 15-17 Mustangs mentioned that they were able to get them for such low prices and that they were turned away from the Camaro because it was thousands more expensive. So now that the Mustang and Camaro are on even playing field as far as price I'm thinking we'll see some interesting sales numbers. GM will fall short tho if they don't get their dealerships in line. One thing about Chevy dealerships is their arrogant attitude. They act like the Camaro is made out of gold and silk. Ford dealerships are much more welcoming and will offer you test drives and anything just to get you in the driver's seat...except for when it comes to the Shelby, lol!! On the higher end cars Chevy dealerships will let you test drive ZL1s and Z06s all day whereas you have to all but buy the Shelby before you can even open the door, lol!! If GM doesn't start getting their dealerships to make more of an effort to move the Camaro then even with the prices being equal I think the Mustang will continue to destroy them. They gotta get incentives and offers and start dropping $$ off the MSRP like the Ford dealerships do. You can't sit on a SS that hasn't sold in months and still act like it's a damn Gallardo or something.
 

martinjlm

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The visibility issue, to me, is pseudo, if you will. In the Mustang you can see much more. But exactly how much you need to see to operate the vehicle safely and comfortably is up for debate. Let's use number just for argument's sake. So let's say you need 3 feet of windshield to see properly and operate a vehicle safely. And everything over 3 feet is just scenery and has no impact on vehicle operation. So let's say most vehicles offer 6 feet of windshield as standard. So you're automatically used to having excess view. Now let's say GM cuts that standard 6 feet down to 4 feet. That leaves only 1 foot of extra view but since you're used to having soo much more you feel cramped and closed in. But you can still operate the vehicle safely and properly. So to me, it isn't that the Camaro has a visibility issue, it's that we have an issue with how much we think we need to see. I've driven plenty of 6th Gen Camaros and I've whipped those bad boys in and out of traffic in daylight and at night on crowded roads without any effort. Once you realize that the visibility issue isn't real is when you'll see that it isn't even there at all.
EXACTLY my point. As for the needing to stop far away from the stop light, that's not a universal issue. It depends a lot on how the intersection is constructed. Most intersections present ZERO issues in my Camaro. I had an HHR that had much worse stoplight visibility issues than my Camaro has ever had. There are some intersections where the stoplights are placed where the view is compromised. I simply pull up to where I can still see the GREEN light. No need to see the YELLOW or the RED if I am stopped. In these situations I look around and....SHOCKER!!!....I'm lined up exactly with whomever is to my left or right. They can probably see the RED and the YELLOW. I can't. Don't care, since I don't need those lights.
 

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Arthonon

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As far as sales, I wondered if the Camaro sales were low due to price and if we'll see things even out now that the Mustang has gone up. Many people who bought 15-17 Mustangs mentioned that they were able to get them for such low prices and that they were turned away from the Camaro because it was thousands more expensive. So now that the Mustang and Camaro are on even playing field as far as price I'm thinking we'll see some interesting sales numbers. GM will fall short tho if they don't get their dealerships in line. One thing about Chevy dealerships is their arrogant attitude. They act like the Camaro is made out of gold and silk. Ford dealerships are much more welcoming and will offer you test drives and anything just to get you in the driver's seat...except for when it comes to the Shelby, lol!! On the higher end cars Chevy dealerships will let you test drive ZL1s and Z06s all day whereas you have to all but buy the Shelby before you can even open the door, lol!! If GM doesn't start getting their dealerships to make more of an effort to move the Camaro then even with the prices being equal I think the Mustang will continue to destroy them. They gotta get incentives and offers and start dropping $$ off the MSRP like the Ford dealerships do. You can't sit on a SS that hasn't sold in months and still act like it's a damn Gallardo or something.
If March sales are any indication, the Mustang price increase hasn't had much impact on its sales, and Camaro sales continued to fall.

I really think it's an initial reaction thing - people get in the Camaro and don't like it, even if they could adjust, it's just not what they think about. The average person is not interested in performance enough to want to "adjust" to a $40K+ car. As I've said before, looking at the stats, even most Camaro buyers are not putting performance first since they're not all buying SSs, and the 1LE package is a small percentage of sales.

As for the arrogance, I did experience a little of that at a car show in January. I asked Chevy about test driving their Camaro at the show, and they said I had to test drive another vehicle first, which just doesn't make any sense to me. I went to Ford, and they said I could either test drive the Mustang there and get a $10 Starbucks card, or they could set up a test drive at a dealership and I'd get a $50 Mastercard.

I went for the dealer test drive, and while the first dealer failed miserably (said they had a car with the 10spd and Magneride, but didn't when I got there and tried to sell me a '17), the second dealer practically tossed me the keys for a test drive when I just walked onto the lot and asked. Didn't ask for ID or anything, and just had someone ride with me. After the Chevy experience at the show, I didn't want to bother going to a dealer to see what they would do.
 

4V Mayhem

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If March sales are any indication, the Mustang price increase hasn't had much impact on its sales, and Camaro sales continued to fall.

I really think it's an initial reaction thing - people get in the Camaro and don't like it, even if they could adjust, it's just not what they think about. The average person is not interested in performance enough to want to "adjust" to a $40K+ car. As I've said before, looking at the stats, even most Camaro buyers are not putting performance first since they're not all buying SSs, and the 1LE package is a small percentage of sales.

As for the arrogance, I did experience a little of that at a car show in January. I asked Chevy about test driving their Camaro at the show, and they said I had to test drive another vehicle first, which just doesn't make any sense to me. I went to Ford, and they said I could either test drive the Mustang there and get a $10 Starbucks card, or they could set up a test drive at a dealership and I'd get a $50 Mastercard.

I went for the dealer test drive, and while the first dealer failed miserably (said they had a car with the 10spd and Magneride, but didn't when I got there and tried to sell me a '17), the second dealer practically tossed me the keys for a test drive when I just walked onto the lot and asked. Didn't ask for ID or anything, and just had someone ride with me. After the Chevy experience at the show, I didn't want to bother going to a dealer to see what they would do.
I agree with some points and disagree with others. I think we'll see in time how sales will go. I do think we'll see some changes. But I think it isn't just a matter of people not liking the Camaro. I think there are several things contributing to the lack of sales. What you mentioned about the Chevy guys sending you away and the Ford guys offering you a test drive and 50 bucks, that says a lot about how willing Ford is to unload a GT and how stubborn the Chevy guys are. Ford gets people in the driver's seat and they offer test drives and even let people take the car home. One dealership offered to let me take the car for the weekend. A friend of mine, they let hey take the car for an entire week. Chevy dealerships aren't doing that at all. They let you sit in it and that's about it. They need people to be in the car driving it for 20 minutes or more or even for an entire day so they can see that the driveability thing is a non-issue. Sitting in the car for 5 minutes isn't going to do that. They need more incentives. 50 bucks, 25 bucks, lunch, a damn candy bar, lol, they need to start being more customer friendly. If they did then I think that would increase their sales substantially. People will buy the car if you put them in it. If you send them to the competition then they will never come back.

One thing I noticed is that the Chevy dealership in my area is the only dealership that lets people walk out the door. Every dealership has the attitude that if you walk out the door you won't come back. So they don't want you leaving even to sleep on it, lol!! Chevy dealerships are too lax when it comes to this. If 1 out of 5 people return then you just lost 80% of your sales for nothing, lol!! The Mustang price increase is just one thing that can help Chevy in the sales war. But they really need to start getting their dealerships incentives to push the Camaro.
 

Norm Peterson

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As for the arrogance, I did experience a little of that at a car show in January. I asked Chevy about test driving their Camaro at the show, and they said I had to test drive another vehicle first, which just doesn't make any sense to me.
Kind of insulting, actually.


Norm
 

Arthonon

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Just a few quick notes: Just to make sure I was clear on the situation, for the auto show Camaro test drive, their policy seemed to be that everyone had to drive a different Chevy vehicle, then could drive the Camaro, like they were using the Camaro as an incentive to make people look at their other cars.

And one of the things I liked about that second Ford dealership was that they DID let me walk out without the hard core sales pitch. I wouldn't have gone back if they were pushy. I have an '18 Mustang on order through them now.

I agree that letting people drive around in the Camaro would almost certainly help sales, because from all accounts it is a great-driving vehicle, but I think it takes some getting used to.
 

Norm Peterson

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Just a few quick notes: Just to make sure I was clear on the situation, for the auto show Camaro test drive, their policy seemed to be that everyone had to drive a different Chevy vehicle, then could drive the Camaro, like they were using the Camaro as an incentive to make people look at their other cars.
I get that. But if you're flat-out not interested in any of their other cars (except possibly a Corvette) why should you be forced to drive something that there's about zero chance of you buying at this point? All that does is waste everybody's time.


Norm
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