GT500 vs ZLE

[roygriffin2020]

Why would you do that, you'll just make 'more excuses'.

Your posts have been hilarious... now you say you 'can tell people's personality's'? You asked for facts... I gave you facts... then you keep switching the story up... the FACT is a NEW ZL1 1LE will SMOKE your car at the road course... and it will SMOKE ANY 4 seater at ANY PRICE! You continue to use '$100K'... why not use $80K? Oh wait... because that doesn't help your argument.

Real world.. almost NO ONE is getting a CFTP car for less than $100K... and EVERYONE is getting a ZL1 1LE for $65K or less...

The only thing you are winning is the quarter mile. Which 760 HP had better... yet... if you want a '4 seater stock daily driver' to tear up the corners... you'll need a Camaro. ;)

So instead of just recognizing the GT500 is indeed a great ride... you're KoolAid drinking is a complete turn off... since you make up your own scenario's to try and feel superior.

Yet, if it's a braking contest, a handling contest or a skid pad contest... you lose. So isn't it just what is important to the owner? If you want to go fast in a straight line... and have a great all around car... I think the GT500 is great. But it doesn't meant it's 'THE BEST CAR FOR LESS THAN $100K'... (even though you can't get a CFTP for that price)... and frankly it just lost to the Camaro in the latest C&D test. While we know those are just 'paid opinions'... the track instruments spoke clearly (even though you continue to try to dismiss them)... the GT500 is a beast in a straight line... but lagging in the handling departments... which at some tracks... an extra 100HP will make up for that.

If I get a GT500 down the road... I clearly won't be the fanboi you are... Man, you act like this is your first new car?? Maybe it is??

Dave

He is tired of pedaling so his parents bought him his first shiny new car.

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[nametoshowothers]

As always poor surface brings the performance closer together of disparate cars that are in different leagues

individual measurements are all nice and fine but do nothing to indicate overall balance and performance

vodoo is correct that for drag racing performance. It is on a prepped track and the cars are light years apart

for illegal street racing it will be close at start and game over at higher speed. Who cares not into it

for road course-on any course the interpolation is game over as well for the zle But having not been actually head to head tested yet, it will remain the troll haven it has always been

for desirability gt500 hands down. No discount bin pricing. All serious reviews are comparing against more up market cars.

For individual perspective who cares. Buy what u want. I will and will not try to convince you are right or wrong

 

[roygriffin2020]

ZLE is not the top speed, the base ZL1 owns the top speed

 

[mavisky]

so show me a slip.. the thing that is absoloutley 100% required .

dont you find it odd that they will spend thousands of dollars on equipment man hours of testing and wear and tear to do a test that 100% useless.. vs spending a few hundred to head to an IHRA/NHRA dragstrip , since the test is literally for 1/4 mile performance? they leave out important factors of the 1/4 mile.. it bafles me..

show me a slip, thats all. a slip. then we will talk 1/4 mile. A TIME SLIP

This isn't NHRA digest, it's Car and Driver and 99% of the mileage these cars run will be on the street. Going to a strip has never been a part of vehicle comparisons. Even in tests where they do go to a prepped drag strip (think Demon launch or something) they still mention the real world numbers.

The equipment is a one-time purchase for them and the man-hours are part of their regular process of doing their job. They have private test facilities within which to run their instrumented tests so the only outlay is time. If they were to go to a dragstrip for every test they'd have the same amount of time, but would have to pay to rent the track out and their numbers wouldn't be indicative of what the cars run on the street. Remember that these stats are going into a list of performance figures that will be compared against all of the past cars they've tested to so there's something to say for continuing to test the cars the way they always have.

Besides, you should know as well as anyone that even a good track can have good and bad days for prep. An un-prepped surface is actually more scientifically repeatable than a prepped surface where slight changes in the VHT, the amount of rubber on the track, and how it was prepped can effect how the track hooks.

Let me say it simpler for you. Magazine tests aren't out to get hero runs, they left that to the Muscle Mustangs or whatever and they're all dead and gone now. They test every car from the newest minivan to the latest supercar in the same area in teh same manner so that the results are scientifically repeatable.

Here's an article from Motor Trend in 2018 describing the exact process they use to ensure repeatable accurate results.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/motor-trend-testing/

 

[bluebeastsrt]

If both cars are tested in the same method using the same tools then the numbers are comparable to one another. Just like dyno's. Change the variables and the measurements are no longer valid for comparison. If you setup a course around your neighborhood block and measure both cars using the same method then those are comparable too. That's how science works...If the tool is inaccurate then it's inaccurate for both so it's still useful for comparison between both vehicles.

You did not just say......using inaccurate tools to measure something is science? You thought process is fubar! A dyno won’t even give you a repeatable run. On the same vehicle back to back. And running around someone’s neighborhood just tells people your an idiot. Not a scientist. You have to remove as many random variables as possible for it to be science. Not the opposite.

 

[mavisky]

@V00D00 I'm not an enemy of the GT500, in fact I'm a big fan of the car and I know you know this car pretty well in particular.


I'm just also a realist and however you want to read it, on the street on an unprepped surface where a new GT500 will potentially line up against a ZL1 1LE, the race is going to be closer than it would be on a prepped drag surface. Obviously the ZL1 1LE hooks better on the street than the GT500 does. It could be the tires, the suspension, the lower power figure, in the end it doesn't matter. It's faster to 60mph (a metric that hasn't been relevant for decades in all honesty) but then gets immediately walked afterwards resulting in a massive gap in trap speeds. That initial jump out of the hole on an un-prepped surface keeps it close at the end right before the GT500 freight trains past it at 8mph faster in the traps. On a prepped surface (which no magazine has ever repeatedly used for testing of production vehicles) the GT500 gains some advantage back as it shaves more time off due to the prepped surface than the ZL1 does. I don't have the data to determine why that is, could be a better 60', could be more traction in 2nd gear, could be that the suspension was tuned to work better on a prepped surface than an unprepped one.

 

[SCCA Racer #75]

so you agree, same tires same day same driver same track, gt3rs were identical.. and you think the zle would have performed the same?

im asking simple questions, not sure why it takes you 30 responses with paragraphs about abstract realities in each, to get to your answer

If you're asking simple questions, you sure have a difficult time with 'simple answers'. What you fail to realize... is the GT3RS comes with 2 sets of tires... and the speed differential is similar to a Standard ZL1 to ZL1 1LE or a standard GT500 vs. a CFTP car. I try to honestly give you credit, and answer your questions honestly... but you only 'like' what seems 'positive' for Ford... and not the 'entire truth'.

I race these cars... I'm not biased... I like Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Porsche, BMW etc... Some cars have pros and cons... a $125K ZR1 can beat a $250K Porsche... doesn't mean it's the better car.

If you take the 'best tire' available for each car... the GT3RS beats both the 3RS and the CFTP car... which will be 'reinforced' when Magazines test the GT500 more. If you run the 'slower' tire on the 3RS (like the Pobst video earlier) and the 'faster tire' on the ZLE & CFTP car, the Camaro or Mustang can win IMO.

Ok... it is what it is... I've tried to answer your questions... for better or worse.

Dave

 

[millhouse]

This isn't NHRA digest, it's Car and Driver and 99% of the mileage these cars run will be on the street. Going to a strip has never been a part of vehicle comparisons. Even in tests where they do go to a prepped drag strip (think Demon launch or something) they still mention the real world numbers.

The equipment is a one-time purchase for them and the man-hours are part of their regular process of doing their job. They have private test facilities within which to run their instrumented tests so the only outlay is time. If they were to go to a dragstrip for every test they'd have the same amount of time, but would have to pay to rent the track out and their numbers wouldn't be indicative of what the cars run on the street. Remember that these stats are going into a list of performance figures that will be compared against all of the past cars they've tested to so there's something to say for continuing to test the cars the way they always have.

Besides, you should know as well as anyone that even a good track can have good and bad days for prep. An un-prepped surface is actually more scientifically repeatable than a prepped surface where slight changes in the VHT, the amount of rubber on the track, and how it was prepped can effect how the track hooks.

Let me say it simpler for you. Magazine tests aren't out to get hero runs, they left that to the Muscle Mustangs or whatever and they're all dead and gone now. They test every car from the newest minivan to the latest supercar in the same area in teh same manner so that the results are scientifically repeatable.

Here's an article from Motor Trend in 2018 describing the exact process they use to ensure repeatable accurate results.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/motor-trend-testing/

Your post is full of contradictions.

They rent out tracks for their comparisons already. They rent out the facilities to do their "instrumented" 1/4 mile runs. Renting out a drag-strip would be no different. They don't own any of their testing facilities.

1/4 mile times are a measure of a vehicles performance that is illegal to use on the street. It gives us an idea of what it's legally capable of only by using its 1/4 mile mph.

Also, I'm going to point out a big B.S. point to that article you posted. They claim that street tires hook up better on the street than on a prepped dragstrip.

"And believe it or not, street tires actually do not hook up well on the race-prepped surface and lose traction more easily than on plain old pavement."

 

[mavisky]

You did not just say......using inaccurate tools to measure something is science? You thought process is fubar! A dyno won’t even give you a repeatable run. On the same vehicle back to back. And running around someone’s neighborhood hood just tells people your an idiot. Not a scientist. You have to remove as many random variables as possible for it to be science. Not the opposite.

Jesus I hate your blue font, can't read it for shit on the dark theme.

Again someone who doesn't understand the scientific method. If you take 30 measurements of 1 thing (a GT500 1/4 mile time) and take 30 measurements of another thing (a ZL! 1LE 1/4 mile time) and use the same instrument for both tests, the numbers are comparable. Done. Finito. End of story. Even if the numbers read 1% higher than another test using a different tool, the fact that the process and procedure for testing remains the same makes the comparison legitimate. Now if the machine is so wildly out of calibration that it's measurement is unreliable, then of course you can't use it. That's not the case here at all. These aren't being measured via i-phones in cupholders and free apps, these are V-box dataloggers that are the industry standard for acquiring data.

The repetition of the process eliminates anomalies, and the consistency of the method guarantees comparability.

 

[shogun32]

vs spending a few hundred to head to an IHRA/NHRA dragstrip

because for whatever reason they chose not to way back when and they are sticking with the same facilities so their numbers are (in theory) comparable year after year after year - do they control for weather degradation over the years (/joke)? I do wonder though why an optical system isn't in their bag of tricks. Light beam interruption technology is not exactly high tech nor expensive.

 

[millhouse]

@V00D00 I'm not an enemy of the GT500, in fact I'm a big fan of the car and I know you know this car pretty well in particular.

I'm just also a realist and however you want to read it, on the street on an unprepped surface where a new GT500 will potentially line up against a ZL1 1LE, the race is going to be closer than it would be on a prepped drag surface. Obviously the ZL1 1LE hooks better on the street than the GT500 does. It could be the tires, the suspension, the lower power figure, in the end it doesn't matter. It's faster to 60mph (a metric that hasn't been relevant for decades in all honesty) but then gets immediately walked afterwards resulting in a massive gap in trap speeds. That initial jump out of the hole on an un-prepped surface keeps it close at the end right before the GT500 freight trains past it at 8mph faster in the traps. On a prepped surface (which no magazine has ever repeatedly used for testing of production vehicles) the GT500 gains some advantage back as it shaves more time off due to the prepped surface than the ZL1 does. I don't have the data to determine why that is, could be a better 60', could be more traction in 2nd gear, could be that the suspension was tuned to work better on a prepped surface than an unprepped one.

The ZL1 hooks better because it has a torque converter, plain and simple.

Funny thing is, line the ZL1 against a dodge demon on the street with regular radial tires and it's going to be a close race. Line up a 1500hp car with regular radial tires and it's going to be a close race.

This argument isn't about who's faster, it's about who has more off the line traction. It's a dumb argument, as if I were planning on lining the GT500 up against anyone, I'd quickly throw a set of drag radials on a be done with it.

 

[mavisky]

Your post is full of contradictions.

They rent out tracks for their comparisons already. They rent out the facilities to do their "instrumented" 1/4 mile runs. Renting out a drag-strip would be no different. They don't own any of their testing facilities.

Car and Driver has access to Chrysler's proving grounds in Michigan and this is where a majority of their testing is done and it's been that way for a very long time. This is not the same as renting out a track like Milan for testing. Other magazines do things differently. Motorweek for example has often used (and you can find video proof of this all over) a dragstrip for their acceleration, braking and even slalom testing going back into the 80's. Just different processes for different folks.

1/4 mile times are a measure of a vehicles performance that is illegal to use on the street. It gives us an idea of what it's legally capable of only by using its 1/4 mile mph.

0-60mph times aren't really relevant when you're talking about 600+hp cars as they're only indicative of initial off the line performance which is severly limited with street tires on an unprepped surface. The C7 Corvette Z06 and the C7 ZR1 were nearly identical in 0-60mph time as they were severely traction limited to that point. Beyond that the new 495 hp C8 out accelerates the ZR1 due to improved traction but loses massively at the strip.

Also, I'm going to point out a big B.S. point to that article you posted. They claim that street tires hook up better on the street than on a prepped dragstrip.

"And believe it or not, street tires actually do not hook up well on the race-prepped surface and lose traction more easily than on plain old pavement."

I am with you on that one, I didn't say the entire article was gospel, it was more about the process they use to ensure scientifically repeatable results.

 

[newmoon]

If you're asking simple questions, you sure have a difficult time with 'simple answers'. What you fail to realize... is the GT3RS comes with 2 sets of tires... and the speed differential is similar to a Standard ZL1 to ZL1 1LE or a standard GT500 vs. a CFTP car. I try to honestly give you credit, and answer your questions honestly... but you only 'like' what seems 'positive' for Ford... and not the 'entire truth'.

I race these cars... I'm not biased... I like Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Porsche, BMW etc... Some cars have pros and cons... a $125K ZR1 can beat a $250K Porsche... doesn't mean it's the better car.

If you take the 'best tire' available for each car... the GT3RS beats both the 3RS and the CFTP car... which will be 'reinforced' when Magazines test the GT500 more. If you run the 'slower' tire on the 3RS (like the Pobst video earlier) and the 'faster tire' on the ZLE & CFTP car, the Camaro or Mustang can win IMO.

Ok... it is what it is... I've tried to answer your questions... for better or worse.

Dave

Which tire is on the 3RS as delivered to the dealer? Not changed out by the dealer but delivered. Whatever tire that is should be tested, end of story.

 

[mavisky]

The ZL1 hooks better because it has a torque converter, plain and simple.

Funny thing is, line the ZL1 against a dodge demon on the street with regular radial tires and it's going to be a close race. Line up a 1500hp car with regular radial tires and it's going to be a close race.

This argument isn't about who's faster, it's about who has more off the line traction. It's a dumb argument, as if I were planning on lining the GT500 up against anyone, I'd quickly throw a set of drag radials on a be done with it.

This whole thing is a dumb argument and is bench racing at it's worst.

 

[ZRacerLE]

The ZL1 hooks better because it has a torque converter, plain and simple.

Funny thing is, line the ZL1 against a dodge demon on the street with regular radial tires and it's going to be a close race. Line up a 1500hp car with regular radial tires and it's going to be a close race.

This argument isn't about who's faster, it's about who has more off the line traction. It's a dumb argument, as if I were planning on lining the GT500 up against anyone, I'd quickly throw a set of drag radials on a be done with it.

Too bad there's not a way to measure EFFECTIVE wheel horsepower

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