GT350 Carbon Ceramic Brakes - 2022 Update

[Iconic2021]

How long to 'bed-in' RB Performance Carbon Carbon-Matrix rotors and what process do you use?
Do they eventually resemble a mirror surface as the Brembos do (once fully bedded-in)?

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[JAJ]

How long to 'bed-in' RB Performance Carbon Carbon-Matrix rotors and what process do you use?
Do they eventually resemble a mirror surface as the Brembos do (once fully bedded-in)?

The RB rotors and the GM ones are different in construction, but not in application. Basically, the brake bedding process is about cooking the binder in the pad material and that's about it. So, I get new pads hot progressively, then let them cool to set and I'm done. The rotor surface can get a very thin layer on it at the track, but it's like a china dinner plate - smooth and shiny - and the layer doesn't last long in city driving and there's no noticeable difference in braking performance.

 

[Iconic2021]

The RB rotors and the GM ones are different in construction, but not in application. Basically, the brake bedding process is about cooking the binder in the pad material and that's about it. So, I get new pads hot progressively, then let them cool to set and I'm done. The rotor surface can get a very thin layer on it at the track, but it's like a china dinner plate - smooth and shiny - and the layer doesn't last long in city driving and there's no noticeable difference in braking performance.

Thanks JAJ; Do you think the pad material will eventually fill all the voids in friction surface? This picture was taken prior to driving first time and the friction surfaces are getting a lot more smooth and shiny., but still not fully filled in.
Are ST-600 pads any good? If not what would you recommend for street use?

 

[JAJ]

Thanks JAJ; Do you think the pad material will eventually fill all the voids in friction surface? This picture was taken prior to driving first time and the friction surfaces are getting a lot more smooth and shiny., but still not fully filled in.
Are ST-600 pads any good? If not what would you recommend for street use?

Interesting question about the rotor surface - the answer is "no". I put it in quotes because mine haven't changed visibly since I got them, and I've done five track days on them and they look as they did when I installed them. Here's what they look like today:

Even though they're not perfectly smooth, pad life is the same as the GM rotors and braking performance is the same too. I know that because this summer, I did some comparison temperature tests with the GM rotors and the new RB rotors. The RB rotors have side-specific air vent channels while the GM are straight.

The comparison test was across two track days at the same track with the same weather. The first day, I had the GM rotor on the left and the RB rotor on the right. Then I swapped them side-to-side the second day. That was necessary because turning the steering wheel blocks airflow to one side and enhances it on the other, and on a counter-clockwise track you're turning more lefts than rights, so the right front rotor tends to run hotter than the front left. Swapping from side to side cancelled that out and I had numbers I trusted.

As for any weirdness from running two different rotors, there wasn't any. Braking was perfectly straight, so from a friction standpoint, they were the same. As for temperatures, the RB rotors with the angled cooling vanes ran cooler than the GM rotors.

As to the ST600's, I benchmarked them against the Pagid RSC-1 compound. I couldn't tell them apart. Pagid markets the RSC-1's as a combo street-track pad. I had no problems on track with the either pad.

If my rotor looks a little out of place, it's because I'm test-fitting these:

I'll update everyone in the spring when they're actually installed. They're works of art (says the guy who's had Stoptech, AP Racing and Brembo Racing kits in the past).

 

[Iconic2021]

Interesting question about the rotor surface - the answer is "no". I put it in quotes because mine haven't changed visibly since I got them, and I've done five track days on them and they look as they did when I installed them. Here's what they look like today:

Even though they're not perfectly smooth, pad life is the same as the GM rotors and braking performance is the same too. I know that because this summer, I did some comparison temperature tests with the GM rotors and the new RB rotors. The RB rotors have side-specific air vent channels while the GM are straight.

The comparison test was across two track days at the same track with the same weather. The first day, I had the GM rotor on the left and the RB rotor on the right. Then I swapped them side-to-side the second day. That was necessary because turning the steering wheel blocks airflow to one side and enhances it on the other, and on a counter-clockwise track you're turning more lefts than rights, so the right front rotor tends to run hotter than the front left. Swapping from side to side cancelled that out and I had numbers I trusted.

As for any weirdness from running two different rotors, there wasn't any. Braking was perfectly straight, so from a friction standpoint, they were the same. As for temperatures, the RB rotors with the angled cooling vanes ran cooler than the GM rotors.

As to the ST600's, I benchmarked them against the Pagid RSC-1 compound. I couldn't tell them apart. Pagid markets the RSC-1's as a combo street-track pad. I had no problems on track with the either pad.

If my rotor looks a little out of place, it's because I'm test-fitting these:

I'll update everyone in the spring when they're actually installed. They're works of art (says the guy who's had Stoptech, AP Racing and Brembo Racing kits in the past).

Awesome looking setup!
Is the binder in the ST-600 pad Carbon Silicon Carbide or other?
Do these RB Calipers have titanium pistons and do the calipers come Silver?


Thanks,

Stephen

 

[JAJ]

Awesome looking setup!
Is the binder in the ST-600 pad Carbon Silicon Carbide or other?
Do these RB Calipers have titanium pistons and do the calipers come Silver?


Thanks,

Stephen

I have no idea what the binder in the pads is - CSC is a component of the rotors, IIRC, but the pads are a mystery. I just know they work.

Here's a view of the inside of the calipers:

Did I mention they're works of art? Probably. In any case the pistons are scalloped stainless steel and there are no dust boots to burn up and cause problems. Even though they're real race calipers, RB has equipped them with very effective anti-rattle hardware. Nice touch.

As to your question about titanium pistons, well, I did some research on stainless vs titanium. Titanium is an amazing material, but stainless steel actually has better thermal performance than stainless. According to this website:

https://www.engineersedge.com/properties_of_metals.htm

Aluminum has conductivity of 136, titanium is about 11 times better at 12 and stainless comes in even better at 8. So stainless conducts about 2/3 the heat of titanium. It's odd that people marketing brake stuff don't mention that stainless is better. Odd, is it not?

 

[Iconic2021]

I have no idea what the binder in the pads is - CSC is a component of the rotors, IIRC, but the pads are a mystery. I just know they work.

Here's a view of the inside of the calipers:

Did I mention they're works of art? Probably. In any case the pistons are scalloped stainless steel and there are no dust boots to burn up and cause problems. Even though they're real race calipers, RB has equipped them with very effective anti-rattle hardware. Nice touch.

As to your question about titanium pistons, well, I did some research on stainless vs titanium. Titanium is an amazing material, but stainless steel actually has better thermal performance than stainless. According to this website:

https://www.engineersedge.com/properties_of_metals.htm

Aluminum has conductivity of 136, titanium is about 11 times better at 12 and stainless comes in even better at 8. So stainless conducts about 2/3 the heat of titanium. It's odd that people marketing brake stuff don't mention that stainless is better. Odd, is it not?

I would think that you would want less thermal conductivity between your pad backing-plates and your fluid as with titanium. What am I missing here?

Thanks!

Titanium vs. Stainless Steel | AmeriTi Manufacturing Company

The only way your calipers could look any better is if they were on MY car! LOL!

 

[JAJ]

So, I'm updating this thread again to cover the new RB front calipers (see a couple of posts up in this thread) in operation. As I posted back in January this year, I was installing them for the 2022 track day season. The install was great. The season, however, wasn't quite what I was hoping for. I did a track day in late May, and then things came unstuck - June was basically rained out in the PNW and July and most of August were blanked out for other reasons. Nonetheless, I got to the track again August 30 and 31. The weather was perfect and so were the new brakes.

Here's a view of the installed calipers with RB ST600 (Corvette form factor) pads in them:

The key upsides with the RB calipers are the stainless pistons, no exposed dust boots and the ability to take pads across a wide range of form factors - Ferrari, Corvette, Dodge, GT350. The specific calipers I have are actually made to work with either 380mm or 394mm rotors - a 7mm spacer is the difference. I'm using them with 394 CCM rotors, but they'd work fine with CCM or iron 380's.

Anyway, so much for how they look standing still. Here's an action shot:

This shot is lifted from a beautiful photo by Kirk Myhre of MC Motorsports Design. If you're driving with Turn2 at the Ridge Motorsports Park in Shelton WA, Kirk is usually there and his work is spectacular. Worth signing up for.

As for how the brake system as a whole works when you're driving, well, it's easy - you can forget about brakes and just drive. No heat problems, no fade problems, no headaches. One of the big differences with carbon ceramic brakes is that everything wears slowly. Rotors last a long time and brake pads last a long time. Pads wear slowly enough that they're almost a seasonal maintenance item, not a week-by-week issue.

So, while they're a significant investment, in my experience they're worth it. Would I do it again? YES!

 

[BAYoung]

Anyone know the total weight for this kit? Rotors, calipers, pads?

 

[JAJ]

Anyone know the total weight for this kit? Rotors, calipers, pads?

This post that I made earlier in the thread shows the 45 pound total weight difference from the rotor swap:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/gt350-carbon-ceramic-brakes-2022-update.85241/post-2539057

CCM front rotors weigh about 15 pounds less each and the rear rotors are about 7 pounds less each.

I didn't measure the difference in caliper weights because I wasn't looking for weight reduction. I was more interested in having top-loader calipers with stainless pistons at all four corners. I think the fronts are lighter than stock and the rears are about the same as stock, but that's just a guess.

 

[BAYoung]

This post that I made earlier in the thread shows the 45 pound total weight difference from the rotor swap:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/gt350-carbon-ceramic-brakes-2022-update.85241/post-2539057

CCM front rotors weigh about 15 pounds less each and the rear rotors are about 7 pounds less each.

I didn't measure the difference in caliper weights because I wasn't looking for weight reduction. I was more interested in having top-loader calipers with stainless pistons at all four corners. I think the fronts are lighter than stock and the rears are about the same as stock, but that's just a guess.

Very fair enough. Appreciate it!

 

[dtheo]

Any 0-60 better times with lighter brakes?

 

[DrZed]

I have heard these rotors can get damaged by rocks if driven on the street, and then are compromised on their performance. I've heard the Porsche ppl replace their CC rotors for steel for this very reason. How real is this risk?

 

[JAJ]

I have heard these rotors can get damaged by rocks if driven on the street, and then are compromised on their performance. I've heard the Porsche ppl replace their CC rotors for steel for this very reason. How real is this risk?

There's a spectacular negative marketing program sowing FUD (Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt) being run by some prominent suppliers of aftermarket iron rotor brake kits. What "you've heard" is that.

I did a ton of research into these brakes before I went for the full setup and what I came to understand is that the earliest carbon ceramic brakes that first emerged in the 1990's on Porsche and BMW fell a long ways short of the performance you get from today's products. That early experience is what fuels the FUD campaign. Twenty odd years later, the RB rotors in this thread are a modern material called "CCM" and it's very rugged. Simply put, the modern stuff is strong as heck.

 

[DrZed]

There's a spectacular negative marketing program sowing FUD (Fear-Uncertainty-Doubt) being run by some prominent suppliers of aftermarket iron rotor brake kits. What "you've heard" is that.

I did a ton of research into these brakes before I went for the full setup and what I came to understand is that the earliest carbon ceramic brakes that first emerged in the 1990's on Porsche and BMW fell a long ways short of the performance you get from today's products. That early experience is what fuels the FUD campaign. Twenty odd years later, the RB rotors in this thread are a modern material called "CCM" and it's very rugged. Simply put, the modern stuff is strong as heck.

Appreciate your experience, thanks for teaching us.

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