GT 350 just got crushed by the C8

[9secondko]

Most guys will order a 100+ Z06, and a carbon GT500 will around there too, maybe more with the whore pricing?
I'll take the Z06

don’t order the carbon and spend 73k instead.

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[9secondko]

It will be mighty impressive if it does.

And the haters better give it props

 

[9secondko]

Like I said, it's an evolution of the S197 GT500. Essentially.

Everyone knows even the S550 chassis is an evolution of the S197. The only thing groundbreaking with the new iteration is the DCT, and that's just in the ponycar world. Oh, and maybe the fact that it won't heat soak after one long pull on a hot day (owned one, been there). Oops, guess that bit sort of counts as evolution too.....

it is only as much as the 350 is an evolution of the boss 302.

 

[Strokerswild]

To an extent, yes, but FPC.

 

[5.2 liters of democracy]

Pulled from the CorvetteForum:

I think the most interesting comparison is a C8 Z51 vs. Mustang 350. The only advantage to the Corvette is how it launches from a standstill. For everything else, power, power/weight, cost, seating capacity, feedback, fun/manual, why not go Ford at this point?

Sucks that this thing is an understeering mess right now. I was hoping the reviews would be much more positive.

 

[Arthonon]

I think the GT350 only has a price advantage if you get it without ADM, which I hope will become a thing of the past.

I watched Matt Farah's One Take video on it, and he bookended the track test drive video with some additional info (apologies if that has been posted before and I missed it). He was all excited during the test drive, but later recognized that he got caught up in the excitement of driving a new vehicle and design, and had a chance to spend more time with it, and had a much more tempered analysis. Still good, just not as good as he thought based on the track driving.

 

[ALUSA]

Yeah the C8 is such a disappointment, slow in every way and not worth $64,995 with the Z51 package. Only being .9 seconds faster than a C7 Z51 on a 2.2 mile track wass a huge disappointment, considering a 2016 C7 Z51 was 1.3 seconds faster than a 2016 GT350 on a 2.5 mile track, same day, same driver comparison.

 

[Cardude99]

Yeah the C8 is such a disappointment, slow in every way and not worth $64,995 with the Z51 package. Only being .9 seconds faster than a C7 Z51 on a 2.2 mile track wass a huge disappointment, considering a 2016 C7 Z51 was 1.3 seconds faster than a 2016 GT350 on a 2.5 mile track, same day, same driver comparison.

I'm willing bet that with less than 1k in mods will eliminate the understeer and make it more neutral and a monster on the track. Mustangs understeer like crazy without aftermarket help. I still see it in a positive light. It might not be 10_10th like everyone wanted but it's 8_ 10ths and the aftermarket can get it the other 2

Keep in mind the grand sport is coming, I have a hard time believing that will have the understeer issue. The z51 is not a Halo car and should not be looked at as one. The fact that it's the base model and does so well should not be overlooked.

 

[5.2 liters of democracy]

I'm willing bet that with less than 1k in mods will eliminate the understeer and make it more neutral and a monster on the track. Mustangs understeer like crazy without aftermarket help. I still see it in a positive light. It might not be 10_10th like everyone wanted but it's 8_ 10ths and the aftermarket can get it the other 2

Keep in mind the grand sport is coming, I have a hard time believing that will have the understeer issue. The z51 is not a Halo car and should not be looked at as one. The fact that it's the base model and does so well should not be overlooked.

Find me a review of the GT350 where they emphasize it "understeers like crazy." The aftermarket should not need to sort out a manufacturer's problems for it.

 

[martinjlm]

Jason Camissa, the driver / writer who wrote about the understeer issue recently joined a Corvette newsgroup and provided more detail on his thoughts about C8, understeer in general, and his specific techniques for driving that particular test. It’s long, but informative. I highlighted a few parts for those who prefer to skim....

Hey guys. Okay, to answer the first question: I had two sessions on track with the C8, one was 7 laps at he end of a fairly long morning of abuse; the second was 7 laps on a new set of tires. When I hopped in the car the first time, it was in Track + PTM 5. I left it there. Toward the end of the second session, I turned ESC off fully.

As a matter of course, I test cars with their ESC systems both on and off. For cars with advanced track modes (like the Corvette) what I'm looking for is to learn what, if any, bad habits the system is trying to cover up.

Some Ferraris, for example, are amazing in Race Mode; neutral and predictable, and they feel 100% natural. It's only once you switch everything off that you realize the car is inherently very unstable at the rear, and the computer is managing everything. It's that well integrated that you mostly can't feel it working.

Even PTM 5 (on any GM, not just the C8) isn't really like that. It leaves you alone to do whatever you want, but will step in only to save your bacon if you're really about to lose it. In the case of the C8, I didn't feel a single intervention on track until I booted it gracelessly coming out of a hairpin to induce a slide. All it did was cut power (a TC function, not an ESP function.)

The car's behavior in the two modes was the same: easy to manage, incredibly stable, and very fast. My first impression was that it didn't have the oh-my-god levels of lateral grip that the C7 had at launch. The skidpad number (1.03g vs 1.08g) bear that out, so my butt-calibration wasn't off.

Understeer is an oft-misunderstood thing. Cars that don't understeer at all are uncontrollable — think of a shopping cart with omnidirectional casters at the rear. The fastest — and incidentally most rewarding — setup is that of very mild understeer to neutral. Basically, you want both ends of the car to reach their limit at the same time. If anything, maybe the front a hair before the rear.

This is mild understeer. And if the limits of the two axles are very close, you then have the ability to manage them using throttle, brake, or steering inputs. A mid-engie mild-understeerer can be made to go neutral with a small amount of trail-braking, for example.

The reason we (and C/D, and MT, and everyone else who's driven the car) complained about the understeer is for a few reasons. Firstly, it's not mild understeer: it's moderate and then some. This means, as a driver, the repertoire of tricks you have at your disposal to change the car's mid-corner attitude are very limited.

And by the way, when I say "we," I'm not talking about "me at Road & Track." I'm talking about the combined editorial staff. I'm sure you don't need or want a speech about the way magazines work, but when I'm writing a piece about a car as important as the C8, you can be sure I shared that story with my colleagues to ensure that we all agreed on those words. The senior R&T staff saw, and edited, that piece to make sure we all agreed with every word.

I should say that two other experienced drivers on staff didn't feel that the C8's understeer was an issue; they found ways of driving around it. They said they were able to get the car to rotate using big steering inputs, brake stabs, and massive trail-braking.

You've probably all seen my stunt driving — I've done literally thousands of huge slides for the MT videos (and everything else I've done) — but I was NOT going to risk crashing a C8 prototype for the glory of getting the car to rotate. Frankly, the whole point of a mid-engine car is that its low polar moment of inertia eliminates the need for that kind of driving. I got it sideways only under full throttle in 2nd gear on corner exit — and it was progressive and easily controllable. But since those guys found ways to drive around the C8's handling limitation, that line made it into "my" piece in R&T.

Fact is, I can get a Camry to oversteer — and quite easily — using those same moves. It shouldn't be necessary in any sports car. And definitely not in a Corvette.

I mean it when I say that GM does some of the best chassis tuning in the business. They have a secret sauce on the C7 and Alpha-plaform vehicles that somehow gives steering response at the understeer limit. This violates the laws of physics — you can get those cars to go neutral even after they've started understeering, using the steering alone. It's likely a combination of MR dampers, diff, and really good elastokinematics. The cars are unbelievable. They're some of the most rewarding limit-handling cars ever made.

The C8 doesn't do this.

I'm in the business of getting hard-working people fired, so there will be no names ever given. Put it this way: GM confirmed to me the limit-handling magic trick that the Alpha/C7 cars do isn't possible on the C8 for engineering reasons. But they're working on it. I suspect subsequent versions of the C8 will do this trick... but the Stingray will remain a resolute understeerer for production.

Let's talk about understeer. Does that mean that the C8 is less rewarding on a track for an advanced driver than it could/should be? Yes. Does it mean it should/could be faster around a track? Absolutely.

Does any of that make it a bad car — or a bad Corvette? Of course not. It's one data point!

You guys are clearly enthused about the car, and nobody wants to hear bad things about something they're excited about. I get that — but please, let's keep the conspiracy theories under control. There's no plan to sell additional magazines. I don't want, need, or care to re-spark a career that's not dead. (By the way, I didn't suddenly reappear at R&T; I've been working with those guys since Travis took over 6 months ago. I have a tech column in every issue.)

And as for "perspective:" the thing is fast as (insert profanity here.) Beats every Corvette ever tested to 60 mph; nearly ties the C7 Z06/Z07pkg through the quarter mile. That's a huge achievement, especially given no substantive power bump over the C7 Stingray. I wrote a big tech piece for R&T's Performance Car of the Year issue on that, explaining how it's possible. It's simple physics, and GM's intelligent guys and gals took advantage of the physics benefits of MR traction and a quick-shifting DCT. They did good.

The rest of the car is pretty dang good, too. I seriously cannot express how well it rides — it genuinely redefines what a sports car can ride like. Feels like you're floating on top of the pavement; it's a strange experience. Is that what a Corvette buyer wants? I'll leave that for you to decide. Doesn't matter what I think.

It doesn't matter whether like any part of the C8. I get paid to tell you about the facts, not the opinions. Facts are: the C8 will beat every other Corvette ever made to 60 mph. It rides like a dream. The passenger-side space is compromised because of the buttons. C7 had better steering feel. Brake-by-wire's didn't please everyone. Transmission has some programming issues that I expect will be taken care of before production begins; but its shifts (go see my IG acceleration video for an example) are nowhere near as quick as PDK's, etc. And the car has far more rear-axle grip than front grip in corners, meaning it understeers.

Any other facts you'd like to know? I'm happy to answer the questions. HeII, I'll give you my feelings too, if you want to know them.

Hope this helps!
Jason

 

[5.2 liters of democracy]

Jason Camissa, the driver / writer who wrote about the understeer issue recently joined a Corvette newsgroup and provided more detail on his thoughts about C8, understeer in general, and his specific techniques for driving that particular test. It’s long, but informative. I highlighted a few parts for those who prefer to skim....

I really hope GM takes this as constructive moving forward. I'd love to see the Grand Sport be an absolute monster. Also I'd just like to point out that I appreciate your informative posts and wish more Camaro and Mustang owners could bring genuine feedback on both platforms like you do.

 

[9secondko]

To an extent, yes, but FPC.

And the 500 to an extent, but DCT, IRS, entire suspension actually purposed for cornering with the best of them, and The biggest brakes ever for a car of this type.

actually kind of seems like a revolution. Not evolution.

 

[EcoVert]

I love it how all you c8 fanbois had such huge hardons and it was going to kill everything Mustang better go and hide and now that you've gotten magazine road tests you're so let down it's the end of the world. LMFAO The c8 is a great car don't worry it'll be okay most of them sold won't see anything but street racing anyway. At least the Mustang drivers won't have to look at those camaro taillights remember c8 drivers be courteous don't be driving with your high beams on.

 

[martinjlm]

I love it how all you c8 fanbois had such huge hardons and it was going to kill everything Mustang better go and hide and now that you've gotten magazine road tests you're so let down it's the end of the world. LMFAO The c8 is a great car don't worry it'll be okay most of them sold won't see anything but street racing anyway. At least the Mustang drivers won't have to look at those camaro taillights remember c8 drivers be courteous don't be driving with your high beams on.

Not that I was one of the “fanbois” of which you speak, but I feel the need to put your victory lap in perspective. Sorta like John the Baptist said in the Gospels... “...but one mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose.”

C8 is not just Stingray (the only car shown so far). C8 also includes Grand Sport, Z06, ZR1, and possibly even something above ZR1 (Zora?). For the first shot out of the box, a base Stingray with Z51, to be capable of beating GT350 0-60 and 1/4 mile and be pretty much right on top of it on the track, even though it is NOT the “track” Corvette says that this is a pretty darn good car. And it can be had for $66,680 with Z51 plus MagnaRide. The GT350 that I recently drove (and loved) stickered at $65,600. As much as I loved that GT350, I’d take the Stingray Z51 every day and twice on Sundays. Not saying the GT350 is a bad car. It’s ridiculously good. I’m just saying the C8 is better and the upcoming higher trims of the C8 will be way over the top.

 

[EcoVert]

I feel the need to put your victory lap in perspective.

Not a victory lap but laughing at those who came here to proclaim Mustang was dead. Yes I take jabs at the c8 but I know it is a great car and as time goes by bigger and better versions will appear it's always that way in the automotive world. Look where the s550 started in 2015 and how it has progressed up to today.

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