GM is pulling back on EVs

[Gregs24]

I would take the time to listen to Ben. He disclosed as to the whys and how comes. The points he makes are an eye opening truth. It’s going to take 10 of millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars to retrofit ICE car manufacturers with the equipment needed to make EV cars. Why GM is pushing back on EVs. It’s going to take money they don’t have at the moment. And with car sales in the dumps right now because of interest rates and pricing profits are on their way down.

Now he also made a great point that EV manufacturers are direct to customer sales. No dealerships involved. They started as EV manufacturers so no retrofit. Their mechanics are educated on these vehicles so no need to retrain. The ICE manufactures re not just a step back they are about 5 steps behind with no real clear view of how they are going to catch up.

This is market dependent and manufacturer dependent

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[Gregs24]

I would actually look at why I made that comment. It takes a few sec so do that. Misinformed replies tend to fall on deaf ears.
Now you cam buy what ever you want. That doesn’t make you a bad guy. What makes you a bad guy is pushing an agenda. If you’re going to thumb your nose at those who can’t afford one and don’t care about the hardships they go through because of said agenda then who are you really helping? When an agenda disenfranchises swaths of humanity then who is that agenda helping?

Are EVs a real need? No they are not

Ehh. I'm not pushing any agenda, just informing that a global company deals in global terms regarding investment. If that makes me a 'bad guy' then stick your head in the sand if you don't want to know what is happening outside your back yard. The US is lagging well behind on some of these investments (for good or bad) Of course poor people can't buy EV's, they can't buy new ICE cars either - they have always bought second hand cars if they can afford a car at all. That has NOTHING to do with EV production.

EV's are the future (reality NOT my agenda) - where the electricity comes from (PHEV, BEV, FCEV etc) is open to debate. You can argue however you like, but the change is coming at different speeds in different countries. The biggest EV market in the world (by some margin) is China. There are cars sold by Ford / Stellantis etc in China not sold in the US - the market is that big. If you own a car company you invest in R&D for your biggest market - always have.

 

[Veteran]

Because R&D comes before production. As mentioned Stellantis are diverting resources into EV's as that is where the global market is going. They will be left behind very quickly if they don't.

Perhaps this is a good time for being left behind and not be part of a craze that really has serious bridges to cross.
Do u know that in Africa most countries only supply electricity for partial periods. Zimbabwe only supplies on average 6 hours per day.
Many places in South America also suffer shortages .
Even first world countries like the USA have overworked power grids.

I could go on and on about the constraints of the worlds grids, but you can Google that .

EVs have their place , but definitely not as the primary propulsion system of vehicles So many are pushing for.
But I’m just ranting haha. All good

 

[kz]

There really isn't an agenda here that Greg24 is pushing - if someone can't see that all that currently being developed by car manufacturers are EVs, you must be blind....
I've been seeing cars being charged on streets of European capitals for years now (there goes the argument about charging for people living in the apartments).

US is way behind on infrastructure because no one wants to pay for it - which is a gridlock we often find ourselves in.

 

[Gregs24]

Perhaps this is a good time for being left behind and not be part of a craze that really has serious bridges to cross.
Do u know that in Africa most countries only supply electricity for partial periods. Zimbabwe only supplies on average 6 hours per day.
Many places in South America also suffer shortages .
Even first world countries like the USA have overworked power grids.

I could go on and on about the constraints of the worlds grids, but you can Google that .

EVs have their place , but definitely not as the primary propulsion system of vehicles So many are pushing for.
But I’m just ranting haha. All good

But there are very few cars in Africa outside of a few cities. There will still be a role for the ICE engine running less environmentally damaging fuels, but for developed countries with huge numbers of vehicles it will / is happening. Don't forget local atmospheric pollution is one of the reasons for getting rid of ICE powered vehicles, which in big cities is a big thing. EV's don't create pollution at the point of use meaning they comply with ULEZ's. There are plenty of ways of generating electricity without using fossil fuels too.

There are two ways of looking at this. You can keep looking for problems and reasons to never change, or you can actively move forward looking to improve our environment locally and globally. The UK is far from leading the way here (but way ahead of the US) but some countries are forging ahead way faster. They are solving the problems you keep coming up with rather than using them as an excuse to do nothing.

And re power grids - the UK consumes MUCH less power than 20 years ago because of the use of LED bulbs and other efficiencies. Our grid is fine.

I'm NOT an EV evangelist - I drive a Mustang (but we also have a PHEV which is way better than the diesel or pure petrol equivalent) but I do know that EV's (whatever form) are the way it is going for the future (and present)

 

[sk47]

Ehh. I'm not pushing any agenda, just informing that a global company deals in global terms regarding investment. If that makes me a 'bad guy' then stick your head in the sand if you don't want to know what is happening outside your back yard. The US is lagging well behind on some of these investments (for good or bad) Of course poor people can't buy EV's, they can't buy new ICE cars either - they have always bought second hand cars if they can afford a car at all. That has NOTHING to do with EV production.

EV's are the future (reality NOT my agenda) - where the electricity comes from (PHEV, BEV, FCEV etc) is open to debate. You can argue however you like, but the change is coming at different speeds in different countries. The biggest EV market in the world (by some margin) is China. There are cars sold by Ford / Stellantis etc in China not sold in the US - the market is that big. If you own a car company you invest in R&D for your biggest market - always have.

Hello; First let me point out some items you ignore, but which have not gone away. The issues literally millions of apartment dwellers and many other renters will face with charging. (Note- not all nor even most will be too poor. Living in a rental does not automatically mean someone is poor.)
You again skip over the control=mandates issue. EV's are in the future due to these mandates which will restrict ICE. Not because ICE does not work. It is not the case that EV's have shown superiority and thus have beaten out the competition. The first stage of the EV push was over 20 years ago with the hybrid era. I know as i was new car shopping in early 2000's. Passed on the hybrids of the time. PHEV, BEV, FCEV etc have been around a while and without the subsidies and mandates would not have a shot at being the "future" as you say.

Interesting way you have of dismissing the poor with an offhand comment. I will be watching to see if the poor ever become a pawn in climate discussions. You know, the bits about how the poor in places such as Bangladesh are subject to be underwater and the like. Some flaunt the plights of the poor when it suits them and dismiss the poor when it does not happen to fit an agenda.
A program last night had a segment on all the very vocal climate champions who fly around in private jets. Some celebs and some who work for the people. Wonder why I added that bit.

Where the electricity will come from is open for debate is cute. In a more logical and sensible world that sort of debate would be settled before laws and mandates which will increase demand are put in place. We have no new ICE rules/laws in place, yet the source of all that electricity is up for debate. We have some real-world examples of what has happened already happens when the grid cannot cope. Turn down the AC ( would be heat currently and don't charge the EV.)

 

[Gregs24]

There really isn't an agenda here that Greg24 is pushing - if someone can't see that all that currently being developed by car manufacturers are EVs, you must be blind....
I've been seeing cars being charged on streets of European capitals for years now (there goes the argument about charging for people living in the apartments).

US is way behind on infrastructure because no one wants to pay for it - which is a gridlock we often find ourselves in.

Ultimately the biggest car market in the world, and the country producing the largest number of cars in the world will have a major influence on what is made. China has a car market bigger than US and Europe combined. Car makers make what they can sell.

Ford knows this - it was producing a world car before many other companies in recent times (Mondeo / Fusion) and even before that (Model T). Ford will not survive making a V8 Mustang and only ICE cars. That ship has sailed.

Jeep make some models that they don't even sell in the US, same for Ford!

 

[sk47]

There really isn't an agenda here that Greg24 is pushing - if someone can't see that all that currently being developed by car manufacturers are EVs, you must be blind....
I've been seeing cars being charged on streets of European capitals for years now (there goes the argument about charging for people living in the apartments).

US is way behind on infrastructure because no one wants to pay for it - which is a gridlock we often find ourselves in.

Hello; An odd proof. That car manufacturers are developing EV's in the face of no ICE mandates/laws coming due in seven years is somehow not part of an agenda is cute. If some odd law stated we had to keep horses in seven years, then you would see us building barns. Mandated changes are forcing the issue. I can recall back when seatbelts were first mandated. The car companies started using safety in the new car ads.

No doubt the USA has spent a lot on stuff. A lot of it foolish stuff. Regardless the money was put on the national credit card (national debt over 31 trillion). Inflation eating us hard right now. So yes, where the money will come from is a big deal. Just saying to do it because the agenda needs it will not make it happen.

 

[AZlb5.0]

There really isn't an agenda here that Greg24 is pushing - if someone can't see that all that currently being developed by car manufacturers are EVs, you must be blind....
I've been seeing cars being charged on streets of European capitals for years now (there goes the argument about charging for people living in the apartments).

US is way behind on infrastructure because no one wants to pay for it - which is a gridlock we often find ourselves in.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-million-to-keep-lights-on-in-monday-s-freeze
They paid that just for one day to keep lights and the heat on. I think Europe as a whole is in more trouble concerning electrical and power grid issues then the US. Facts tend to be the big ole 2 ton boulder that just fell in that man made backyard pond.

 

[Gregs24]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-million-to-keep-lights-on-in-monday-s-freeze
They paid that just for one day to keep lights and the heat on. I think Europe as a whole is in more trouble concerning electrical and power grid issues then the US. Facts tend to be the big ole 2 ton boulder that just fell in that man made backyard pond.

There is no Europe as a whole. There are links between countries electrically but each is responsible for its own grid. They do vary between countries but our lights don't go off.

Considering generation costs in the UK are around £8m per day that is not a ludicrous figure at a time of extreme cold here when consumption is high

 

[AZlb5.0]

There is no Europe as a whole. There are links between countries electrically but each is responsible for its own grid. They do vary between countries but our lights don't go off.

Considering generation costs in the UK are around £8m per day that is not a ludicrous figure at a time of extreme cold here when consumption is high

And earlier in the year when France had to on multiple occasions shut down lights around the country because their power grid was taxed. Or when the president of Spain mandated that the Spanish cut down on their use of electricity because the countries electrical companies and grid couldn’t keep up and now he turns around and touts themselves as energy “savers” come on. It’s not just a 1 country issue.

I lived and travelled all over Europe for 4 years in the early 90s. Italy Spain Luxembourg Holland Spain Germany France. And speak Spanish and German fluently. I’m not talking as someone who hasn’t left the American shores.

 

[kz]

I lived and travelled all over Europe for 4 years in the early 90s. Italy Spain Luxembourg Holland Spain Germany France. And speak Spanish and German fluently. I’m not talking as someone who hasn’t left the American shores.

Wow, that's a lot. I lived there for 35 years, does that count ? I've been in Lisbon two months ago (and on average am somewhere in EU 3-4 times a year), half of my Uber rides were in electric vehicles.
Yes, they have energy troubles but if someone thinks that several headlines are going to change where the world is going, think again.

For the record - I am not some big proponent of EVs, but I live in a corporate world and observe, nothing else. At the end, time will tell, our arguments here on this forum will not change anything.
But I bet there was an sk47 counterpart 100 or so years ago when first ICE cars started showing up using exactly the same arguments against them (after all - they're a flawed idea to begin with using fossil fuels that aren't unlimited).

 

[AZlb5.0]

Wow, that's a lot. I lived there for 35 years, does that count ? I've been in Lisbon two months ago (and on average am somewhere in EU 3-4 times a year), half of my Uber rides were in electric vehicles.
Yes, they have energy troubles but if someone thinks that several headlines are going to change where the world is going, think again.

For the record - I am not some big proponent of EVs, but I live in a corporate world and observe, nothing else. At the end, time will tell, our arguments here on this forum will not change anything.
But I bet there was an sk47 counterpart 100 or so years ago when first ICE cars started showing up using exactly the same arguments against them (after all - they're a flawed idea to begin with using fossil fuels that aren't unlimited).

My point was that I wasn’t an American who had never left it’s shores speaking about Europe and the hurdles they face.

My further point being that EVs are not something that the public pines for because EVs don’t do anything different unlike ICE vehicles revolutionized travel in the early 1900s.

Explain to me what an EV does differently then an ICE vehicle does other than with a different power train? Does it revolutionize travel? Will you able to travel intercontinentally with out needing to stop for a recharge? Will it get you there any faster? Will it save you time and energy?

If EVs would have been a better mode of transportation (they’ve also been around since the early 1900s) they would have been developed alongside ICE engines and they would have over taken ICE vehicles already.

Your argument that people made the same points in the early 1900s is flawed with one simple example. At no time did any officials mandate travel by horse illegal give a time line to stop traveling by horse or outlawed the sale of horses so people would only buy ICE vehicles.

Where I live people still travel by horse back. Haven’t seen one get a ticket or had their horse impounded because of it.

 

[sk47]

Wow, that's a lot. I lived there for 35 years, does that count ? I've been in Lisbon two months ago (and on average am somewhere in EU 3-4 times a year), half of my Uber rides were in electric vehicles.
Yes, they have energy troubles but if someone thinks that several headlines are going to change where the world is going, think again.

For the record - I am not some big proponent of EVs, but I live in a corporate world and observe, nothing else. At the end, time will tell, our arguments here on this forum will not change anything.
But I bet there was an sk47 counterpart 100 or so years ago when first ICE cars started showing up using exactly the same arguments against them (after all - they're a flawed idea to begin with using fossil fuels that aren't unlimited).

Hello; Guess you do not read my posts thoroughly. Go back and look at the posts where i say an EV can fit the needs of some. Or that the EV ought to compete with ICE and let the better win. But to your point about when ICE first showed up.
Yes, I would have been pointing out how the early ICE had issues and were not practical for all right way. That the roads of the time would have limited the use of an EV compared to horses. Likely that fuel was not readily available everywhere. Probably a lot of other real issues faced by the early users of ICE back in the day.
Thing is the ICE proved itself over time. Far as I know horses and steam engines were not outlawed to give the ICE a boost. There was an episode between ICE and electric trolly cars in a city as I recall reading about.

Another point is you do not directly disparage my comments about the current problems of an all-EV vehicle fleet. Could it be because I make valid points? That the EV has issues is not a secret. Will the issues be worked out, so the EV is indeed a better vehicle choice than an ICE? Maybe so, but such is not yet even close to being the case.
I recall a scene in the remake of a western Montie Walsh. (Tom Selleck) Near the end of the film Walsh was riding a fine horse with a really nicely outfitted rig. He came upon a motor car stuck in the mud. The car guy wanted a pull out of the mud. Walsh galloped his fine horse and jumped over the car and rode off. That day the horse was a better deal. later on a better car on better roads put the horse out to pasture.

 

[sk47]

My point was that I wasn’t an American who had never left it’s shores speaking about Europe and the hurdles they face.

My further point being that EVs are not something that the public pines for because EVs don’t do anything different unlike ICE vehicles revolutionized travel in the early 1900s.

Explain to me what an EV does differently then an ICE vehicle does other than with a different power train? Does it revolutionize travel? Will you able to travel intercontinentally with out needing to stop for a recharge? Will it get you there any faster? Will it save you time and energy?

If EVs would have been a better mode of transportation (they’ve also been around since the early 1900s) they would have been developed alongside ICE engines and they would have over taken ICE vehicles already.

Your argument that people made the same points in the early 1900s is flawed with one simple example. At no time did any officials mandate travel by horse illegal give a time line to stop traveling by horse or outlawed the sale of horses so people would only buy ICE vehicles.

Where I live people still travel by horse back. Haven’t seen one get a ticket or had their horse impounded because of it.

Hello; You beat me to the point. I was typing when your post showed up. I like your post better than mine.
I watch the Yellowstone TV show. They still use horses and horses still have a place in the working world. I recall a camping trip into the Colorado Rockies many years ago. Had to stop my truck and let some men on horses move cattle along.

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