Gen 2 5.2L - Does it push more HP? Truth or rumor?

[stanglife]

Agreed. Since 2011, pretty much all Ford ECU's have a loop in the calibration that probes the limits of safe spark advance. It's for fuel economy. It continuously moves the spark up until the knock sensor starts to hear strange noises and then backs it down just a hair. That's why you actually get more power with higher octane fuel in most Fords. I expect that Ford has decades of data on how much knock is tolerable and what isn't. Cylinder 8 seems to be the canary in that particular coal mine.

An aftermarket tuner can adjust the safety threshold upwards and get even more power, with the risk that knock will do damage. It's all a balancing act.

The other variable is cam timing. As @honeybadger has just posted, locking the cams reduces power, so Ford may have found a bit more power with different cam timing in later model years. But, as I said earlier, that's not because the engine is more powerful, it's because of software changes.

Ahh but the software is changing physical attributes now ;) It's becoming hard to tell what is software or hardware. Check out freevalve technology - is it the software or the hardware that provides basically limitless camshaft profiles on the fly?

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[JAJ]

Ahh but the software is changing physical attributes now ;) It's becoming hard to tell what is software or hardware. Check out freevalve technology - is it the software or the hardware that provides basically limitless camshaft profiles on the fly?

Well, I think it's pretty easy to tell the difference between software and hardware - just weigh it!

I think you're hit on the real core of the debate here. If you could run 2020 software on a 2016, would you have 2020 performance? Probably. Same with freevalve. If you have a freevalve engine and you update the software, you get new performance with an old engine - who could ask for anything more!

 

[honeybadger]

The other variable is cam timing. As @honeybadger has just posted, locking the cams reduces power, so Ford may have found a bit more power with different cam timing in later model years. But, as I said earlier, that's not because the engine is more powerful, it's because of software changes.

This wouldn't surprise me since tuners typically find more power with no changes but the tune.

As a side note, who needs power below 5,500 RPM? pshh, our motors are built to SING

 

[JAJ]

As a side note, who needs power below 5,500 RPM? pshh, our motors are built to SING

So long as you never have to parallel park on a hill...

 

[honeybadger]

So long as you never have to parallel park on a hill...

That's an easy one. Just dump the clutch 2500 . Added benefit of clearing the tires off

 

[WildHorse]

Might be coincidence but the Gen IIs do seem to trap a couple miles an hour faster that the Gen I in most reviews.

Tires/options/weight I'm betting.

 

[Hack]

The other variable is cam timing. As @honeybadger has just posted, locking the cams reduces power, so Ford may have found a bit more power with different cam timing in later model years. But, as I said earlier, that's not because the engine is more powerful, it's because of software changes.

Definitely cam timing can affect power.

And if you assume that Ford didn't test and optimize the cam timing previously, then that could be a method for them to increase power. Seems farfetched to me, but it's sure possible.

 

[svttim]

Form my interactions with Ford on the Gen 2 it was all about reliability, not power. And if there was a small power bump, it was not worth the cost of recertifying. I will say, they were fairly polite in not saying much

 

[oldbmwfan]

Tires/options/weight I'm betting.

Agree.

To put numbers to it, the pre-'19 cars have MPSS tires that weigh 29 lbs front/ 31 lbs rear.
The '19+ cars have Cup 2 tires that weigh 28 lbs front/ 31 lbs rear. That's 1-2 lbs lighter per corner, and it's in the most significant spot - at the outer circumference of a rotating assembly. That weight reduction + slight increase in traction is far more likely to give a sense of better acceleration than an extra 5-10 HP. Not sure if the 19+ stock wheels are lighter, also: can't find a reliable weight for those.

 

[Angrey]

Agree.

To put numbers to it, the pre-'19 cars have MPSS tires that weigh 29 lbs front/ 31 lbs rear.
The '19+ cars have Cup 2 tires that weigh 28 lbs front/ 31 lbs rear. That's 1-2 lbs lighter per corner, and it's in the most significant spot - at the outer circumference of a rotating assembly. That weight reduction + slight increase in traction is far more likely to give a sense of better acceleration than an extra 5-10 HP. Not sure if the 19+ stock wheels are lighter, also: can't find a reliable weight for those.

The 315/30/19 in cup2 comes in around 26.5 lbs.

You're correct, 3 lbs spinning at radius saps torque and power.

However, just as important is the fact that the 315 cup2's are 26.5" tires. The 305/35 MPSS were 27.4" tall.

The effective gear change just from the tire diameter is like going from a 3.73 to a 3.87 rear ratio.

Or put another way, to have the SAME effective gear/rpm ratio, a car with Cup2 (315/30 tires, 26.5" tall) would need to have a rear ratio of 3.60 in order to have the same identical drive ratio of an MPSS car (27.4") with 3.73's.

Where would a person feel this effect most....in lower rpms and low torque output where torque multiplication is crucial to generating speed.

 

[THX 138]

The 315/30/19 in cup2 comes in around 26.5 lbs.

You're correct, 3 lbs spinning at radius saps torque and power.

However, just as important is the fact that the 315 cup2's are 26.5" tires. The 305/35 MPSS were 27.4" tall.

The effective gear change just from the tire diameter is like going from a 3.73 to a 3.87 rear ratio.

Or put another way, to have the SAME effective gear/rpm ratio, a car with Cup2 (315/30 tires, 26.5" tall) would need to have a rear ratio of 3.60 in order to have the same identical drive ratio of an MPSS car (27.4") with 3.73's.

Where would a person feel this effect most....in lower rpms and low torque output where torque multiplication is crucial to generating speed.

Yep. I've been running 30-series Hoosier R7 tires on my GT350 on track for 2 years now. On the odd occasion when I switch to my 35-series MPSS street tires for a track session (read: Whenever my Hoosiers are corded mid-weekend), I can tell a noticeable lag when accelerating out of the corners. It's enough of a difference that I'm switching to 30-series tires for my street wheels this year as well. 30-series tires are what the GT350R's have come with all along, anyway.

 

[Angrey]

Yep. I've been running 30-series Hoosier R7 tires on my GT350 on track for 2 years now. On the odd occasion when I switch to my 35-series MPSS street tires for a track session (read: Whenever my Hoosiers are corded mid-weekend), I can tell a noticeable lag when accelerating out of the corners. It's enough of a difference that I'm switching to 30-series tires for my street wheels this year as well. 30-series tires are what the GT350R's have come with all along, anyway.

I have 4.09's in the back now, and prefer the performance of the cups, but I do NOT like the scraping, the car already scrapes enough as it is, now worms everywhere duck when I'm around.

If Michelin or Toyo made a 315 or 325 in 35 series and a 305 in 35 series (cups) it'd be most helpful in that regard.

 

[Bulldogs22]

I have 4.09's in the back now, and prefer the performance of the cups, but I do NOT like the scraping, the car already scrapes enough as it is, now worms everywhere duck when I'm around.

If Michelin or Toyo made a 315 or 325 in 35 series and a 305 in 35 series (cups) it'd be most helpful in that regard.

2019 & 2020 GT350's come with standard 295/35 & 305/35 Cup 2's so you can get the 305/35 you are after. These Cup 2's do differ from the R's 305/30 & 315/30 in compound. Think of MPSS as the hard compound, Non R 350 Cup 2's as the medium compound, and the R's Cup 2's as the soft compound basically resembling Cup 2 R's. Unless you are a track rat I doubt you will ever need more grip than what the standard 350 Cup 2's offer. I don't think a 315 to 305 would make that big of a difference as the 305's stretch out to almost about 315 width.

 

[Angrey]

2019 & 2020 GT350's come with standard 295/35 & 305/35 Cup 2's so you can get the 305/35 you are after. These Cup 2's do differ from the R's 305/30 & 315/30 in compound. Think of MPSS as the hard compound, Non R 350 Cup 2's as the medium compound, and the R's Cup 2's as the soft compound basically resembling Cup 2 R's. Unless you are a track rat I doubt you will ever need more grip than what the standard 350 Cup 2's offer. I don't think a 315 to 305 would make that big of a difference as the 305's stretch out to almost about 315 width.

Yes, but then I'm running all raked/weirdo with 30 series in the back. The only solution is 305 squared, which my wheels aren't setup for (running OEM R specs/offset). And the cup2's weren't enough traction for the car max'd out N/A with 4.09's let alone now (with a blower upcoming).

In fairness I wish I'd have gone 20", but I was trying to save as much weight and rotational intertia as possible.

I also recently purchased a set of 18"s for the rear, and that helps, but the larger profiles make it more spongy and less of a track car and more of a street/strip car.

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