FYI: Coyote 5.0 Plasma Transfer Wire Arc cylinder liners

[GregO]

I knew you weren't going to answer the question. You cannot measure that without tearing down an engine (if at all), so it's useless crap for new car owners.

I’m not here to fact check what you don’t know or don’t understand.

Tear down an engine to check ring seal ?

Exactly what is “useless crap” and when did new car owners become part of this conversation ?

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[GT Pony]

I knew you weren't going to answer the question. You cannot measure that without tearing down an engine (if at all), so it's useless crap for new car owners.

A cylinder compression check (dry and wet for a delta), and a cylinder leak down test while listening for where the air pressure is escaping (rings and/or valves) will tell a lot.

 

[sk47]

A cylinder compression check (dry and wet for a delta), and a cylinder leak down test while listening for where the air pressure is escaping (rings and/or valves) will tell a lot.

Hello; Now that you mention it I wonder if such tests have been performed on the Coyote V-8's in the F-150 or the Mustang? Especially the wet vs. dry compression which ought to focus on the ring seal.

 

[gadgtfreek]

Drive it like you stole it.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Hello; Now that you mention it I wonder if such tests have been performed on the Coyote V-8's in the F-150 or the Mustang? Especially the wet vs. dry compression which ought to focus on the ring seal.

MPR tested the growth at .005 at 200 degree water temp circulating, thats not counting combustion temp....they lamented how out of square several are but since there isn't enough liner thickness to hone to square your stuck with it...they also hypothesize ( at i presume typical Hyper level silicon content) you would have to run negative piston to wall -.0005 aka HALF thousandth to be in tolerance at operating temp...JE also measured quite a bit of knock at BDC due to clearance stock.....
I also have wondered about excessive rod side clearance, now I got one of the most noticeable ticking engines measured at .004 piston to wall but was not able to attain rod side clearance...I will because to much WILL have an effect on durability especially at 8000rpm...
I'll measure my core when I build it.......

The break in miles, methods, gauge, oil, and driver were all the same between my 3 engines and 2 are STILL 180psi cylinder pressure( vs 220-230 on original engine with less miles),7000 miles in and I just changed the oil today, hadn't used a drop with about 3700 miles on it...and thats boosted 720whp on 93....
I also caught a sample to send to blackstone to compare to the captain insano loud first engine....

Lund is starting to acknowledge problems with the Gen 3 attaining commanded cam phasing at idle so rpm drops..( redesigned for Gen 3) with most dealers swapping them out depending on level of mods fixing it..or if doing it stock....

Its normal for an engine to have some slap cold till the PISTON heats up ( cause it expands further than bore its in) to match, typically an thick iron liner, in this case the blocks bore out grows the piston with the "fix" seemingly being tighter wall to skirt and offset piston pins to help rock and an allow that has a prayer of following bore growth but even at that many shops are putting 2618 in at
0.0025 which is insanely tight for that alloy...
Some 2618 designs actually are adding .001 to the skirt vs stock ) because clearance can't be set at the super thin bore........

The rod side clearance is an interesting addendum because the Gen 3, bypasses oil pressure with at idle with a solenoid and it goes down to almost nothing....would be interesting to take a bad idler ticker and block that bypass in tuning....

One thing is for sure, it's INSANE to take the word of the entity which is directly economically responsible for what is and isn't normal, when they can't identify and reveal exactly what it is...

You asked the reason it ticks and rattles after first oil change ( well SHORT and LONG blocks come with Pans, filters and full of oil), the answer is because you wouldn't buy it that way makes you wonder if ford doesn't have some X17 ect in it.....Ceretec aka a friction reducer will in fact early on kill it for a while....hmmmm a product that reduces metal to metal friction quitens engine immediately but the noise doesn't affect long term durability....

Some of the earlier engines got lucky in that their bores were on the narrow side during a batch and their pistons on the large side...nothing more count yourself lucky.....

I'll prove it if my wife survives giving out 40k doses of Covid19 vaccine in a few weeks and doesn't come home and kill me with it.....as ill change ONLY the piston ALL other fasteners and gaskets will be Ford stock....same crank and rods too....same bearings if at all possible....new head gaskets and Ford torque to yield bolts....

Hope I live long enough to prove it....

 

[sk47]

You asked the reason it ticks and rattles after first oil change ( well SHORT and LONG blocks come with Pans, filters and full of oil), the answer is because you wouldn't buy it that way makes you wonder if ford doesn't have some X17 ect in it.....Ceretec aka a friction reducer will in fact early on kill it for a while.

Hello; Very interesting point. Perhaps someone with a new engine that still has the factory fill could send in a sample for analysis. If this were to prove to be true it begs the question as to why Ford does not recommend or sell such an additive. My first quick thought is there is a push the last years to advertise low ownership costs. Such things as longer oil change intervals come to mind. I am still a 3000 mile oil change for the most part.

I also caught a sample to send to blackstone to compare to the captain insano loud first engine....

Hello; I read the post again and see you did catch the factory oil.

 

[sk47]

I'll prove it if my wife survives giving out 40k doses of Covid19 vaccine in a few weeks and doesn't come home and kill me with it.

Hello; Best wishes for you and especially your wife. I have the greatest respect for the health care people doing what has to be a very hard job at great risk.

 

[sk47]

Its normal for an engine to have some slap cold till the PISTON heats up ( cause it expands further than bore its in) to match, typically an thick iron liner,

Hello; back in 2004 I totaled my F-150 pickup and needed a replacement. The Ford dealers had a new extensive remodel of the F-150 that year and were not cutting deals. I found a Chevy Silverado at a good discount and went with the 4.8 instead of the 5.3 V8. I knew of the piston slap in the GM engines at the time. Best as I could determine it was more common in the 5.3. My WAG is the 4.8 has a shorter stroke and that may be the difference. Bought the Chevy new in 2004 and it has nearly 60K miles now. Since I retired I do not put the miles on it.
My neighbors had two Silveradoes for a time. One had bad slap at cold startup for a couple of minutes. I could hear it from a hundred feet away. So far the 4.8 has been quiet.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Been a while since any new information has been posted in this thread. Thought I would check in to see if new thoughts or information is available. I ask as I am considering a call to a Ford dealer about a 2020 Mustang GT with a manual transmission. I have talked to them back around November and again near the end of December. I just checked and find the GT is still listed as of tonight.
An update on any issue is welcome, engine or manual trans included.

 

[EFI]

Hello; Been a while since any new information has been posted in this thread. Thought I would check in to see if new thoughts or information is available. I ask as I am considering a call to a Ford dealer about a 2020 Mustang GT with a manual transmission. I have talked to them back around November and again near the end of December. I just checked and find the GT is still listed as of tonight.
An update on any issue is welcome, engine or manual trans included.

Nothing has really changed in the 3+ years the engine's been out. Same stuff.

You should have 5+ years of warranty on that engine, so buy with confidence.

 

[sk47]

Nothing has really changed in the 3+ years the engine's been out. Same stuff.

You should have 5+ years of warranty on that engine, so buy with confidence.

Hello; I called the Ford dealer yesterday. They have a GT with the manual trans. I have been calling near the end of the month since November making the same offer. In December we were $1500 apart so I had hoped to be closer at the start of Feb. But they went up on what they wanted. So will move on the the dealer with the next package on my list of favored things.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Hello; back in 2004 I totaled my F-150 pickup and needed a replacement. The Ford dealers had a new extensive remodel of the F-150 that year and were not cutting deals. I found a Chevy Silverado at a good discount and went with the 4.8 instead of the 5.3 V8. I knew of the piston slap in the GM engines at the time. Best as I could determine it was more common in the 5.3. My WAG is the 4.8 has a shorter stroke and that may be the difference. Bought the Chevy new in 2004 and it has nearly 60K miles now. Since I retired I do not put the miles on it.
My neighbors had two Silveradoes for a time. One had bad slap at cold startup for a couple of minutes. I could hear it from a hundred feet away. So far the 4.8 has been quiet.

I have a lot of experience with these both building from scratch and boosting salvage cores with a few mods ( ring end gap, ls9 gaskets and China head studs)...
What you are describing is precisely how it should work...its has a little piston slap cold that goes away as it warms up. That is because the piston expands in the bore and the bore as it heats doesn't outpace the thermal expansion of the stock cast piston alloy. This is because say on a 5.3L LH6 you may have a sleeve that's 0.300 thick ( vs 0.006 plasma bore) and the gen 4 has bulkheads for even those thick cylinder liners ( we literally bore the 5.3L out to 5.7L and STILL have more wall thickness left than a lot of 6.2L stock ( aka holds boost and unshrouds valves).
That behavior is exactly how you expect engines to act, you are correct in assuming the shorter stroke and conversely the improved rod to stroke length ratio/thrust angle of 4.8L can indeed lessen this effect...but it quitens as it warms and the piston expands into into bore and the bore isn't growing much....

The plasma bore piston reacts the same the problem IS the plasma bore itself paces or outgrows the thermal expansion of the stock piston because it's so thin....it grows to .005 which is nuts...when the piston might only grow .002 ( stick hyper but 0.004-7 depending on alloy 4032 or 2618 and skirt design). So instead of that cold start up slap wearing the grafal from the piston slowly at cold start for let's say 5 minutes....the Gen 3 plasma bore engine is wearing it when it's WARM...hence the Ceratec friction modifier ( and I found MsO2 moly to be helpful as well)...now the dealers are starting to see a lot trucks come in with cylinder damage bone stock. It took longer because they aren't turned the same rpm and smashed stop sign to stop sign but are driven more regularly....

Traditionally piston manufacturers have worked on getting that cold piston to wall as tight as possible for more stable, longer wearing, and efficient ring sealing BUT that was in traditional bores not growing at the same or greater rate...its why you won't see a built gen 3 coyote with a sleeved block ( usually darton ductile iron liners WAY thicker than the plasma bore ) with a tick warm.....the trade off has historically been the same cold start up piston slap you mentioned for a few minutes NOT the entire time its running....the market tried to get them to run tighter and tighter to fully eliminate this and its why, until a certain power level 4032 forged alloy is preferred on street engines because it can be run at tighter clearances.....

You can see how the math of the piston running out of optimum spec cold a few minutes each morning on Traditional engine designs is preferable to it running out of spec the entire time it's hot ( plus no one hears that after they leave their driveway lol, you don't have old men flagging you trying to tell you that your car is knocking).
As MPR said for the plasma bore with cast piston to run at correct skirt to wall hot, it would need NEGATIVE clearance to 0.0005 ( 1/2 thousandth clearance cold) which is why ford tightened up the clearance, offset the piston pin and tried to rely on that thick grafal coating...ONE variable not accounted for though the plasma bore is hair thin, can't be reused with even the finest of scratches ( vs Traditional bores having several rebuilds worth of material in them), expanding insanely ( though you can get pistons to match from Mahle notice they are .001 oversized from stock too and in 2618 alloy), they are rock hard and that may play a role in the engine living out to 60,001 miles.....

Also as mentioned with the 4.8L shorter stroke, don't mistake the fact your engines will pull to 7500 factory as having the correct bottom end geometry to do so, its horrible geometry for RPM from an engine builders perspective, it's entirely the DOHC and head setup that flows there but that bottom end isn't happy , the piston comes way out the bottom with terrible angularity compared to other high rpm purpose built engines....

Its crystal clear what the problem is and has been and why the Predator doesn't tick ( same bore but forged pistons)....why sleeved built engines don't tick either.....

Also the 10 speed which has let me down twice at 700whp is really start to become an issue on the trucks...I went over mine with the tran tech and I like the overall design it needs a bit more room for clutch material and more surface area for converter grip ( looks like the Mach I is getting that) but above all it's needs serviceable clutch group solenoids so that an entire $1000 isn't spent for an entire valvebody, fluid, filter, and reprogramming to your PCM....user serviceable would help a lot....

 

[engineermike]

@BlueCollarDaily what is different about the Predator, in your belief, that makes it not tick as compared to the gen3 coyote?

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

@BlueCollarDaily what is different about the Predator, in your belief, that makes it not tick as compared to the gen3 coyote?

It has forged pistons....vs cast...it also has ( similar to 4th gen aluminum LS ) bulkhead supports for those plasma bores and while they are 5.2L id be curious to know since the block is rated for 12psi stock if they are slightly thicker. However supporting them in key places (kind of like people would do on the Gen 2 in the coolant jacket which to a lesser degree was introduced into the design of the gen 3 )...

Also it would be the hand built nature of them vs being at the mercy of batches of bores being a bit large coupled with piston batches being a big narrower ), this is probably regardless of break in the most significant variable in IF and when your Gen 3 starts ticking...how by pure luck tight was your batch of piston skirt thickness opposed to blocks mass produced bore thickness....
If I am being fair the Predator has not only difference in block support and forged piston but more precise repeatable hand built assembly.....

Just going off my experiences its a settled issue for me, it's funny even to this date AL, simply put a forged piston in his plasma bore block replacement ( his stock was a fairly robust ticker till it broke several secondary ring lands, like all mine did ) to this date he doesn't have the tick after countless passes and dyno pulls...still on 93 with ALL the same heads,GDI, and timing components in place...he simply took his blown stock short block out....replaced it with a stock gen 3 plasma block ( $1000 ready to assemble not a bad price honestly with final honing ready to assemble and no machine work needed ) which has 2618 forged pistons same bore.....no tick....

I been trying to research the average mass produced gen 3 rod side clearance too, as with composite pans that's amplifying anything down there...and my first engine I swear it would be louder half way up a pair of car ramps and I don't mean acoustically transmitting better I mean with directional mics......


Ford could buy a bulk 4032 piston shove it in there tight with like a perfect skirt break in coating and be golden, it's overall imho a good engine...stellar even.....they revised the balancer and need a slight revision on the intake phasers ( some of that is low oil pressure on 5w20 with the oil pressure bypass open at idle)...

If I were to buy one today new I'd factor in building a spare short block, and or buy the longest extended warranty I could and not modify it...also some dexos 2 LSPI resistant oil......

I hope I live long enough to see some of these in the 150k mile range....this will sound like bullshit but I swear I've pulled MANY 6.0L LS down at 180-230k and it still have factory hone marks in the cylinders...( LS2/3 ect LQ4s not the newer LTs).....

I think Ford tried to and for the most part made a masterpiece it's how they pretend all ticks are created equal thats bothersome...ive seen what I call 20fters ( my first engine) to dude your being anal that could be exhaust pulses but they pile all noise complaints under 7718 instead of diagnosing them individually....
Having owned the SAME car with both a LOUD one and a super quite one, I can tell how the ownership experience is vastly different and shouldn't be lumped together...thats my rub....I love how they tried to push envelopes its in my nature......

 

[EFI]

Alot of good stuff here, and would be completely relevant to the Coyote IF the tick that people commonly hear is piston slap. But it has been determined that the tick is not piston slap. PIston slap is consistent with engine RPM, while the tick isn't.

I've had piston slap many years with various LS and 3800 engines and it's not the same thing as the tick in the Coyote.

Also, the Coyote has had the tick since it came out in 2010, yet Gen 1 and 2 engines don't have the same issues as the Gen 3.

I have a lot of experience with these both building from scratch and boosting salvage cores with a few mods ( ring end gap, ls9 gaskets and China head studs)...
What you are describing is precisely how it should work...its has a little piston slap cold that goes away as it warms up. That is because the piston expands in the bore and the bore as it heats doesn't outpace the thermal expansion of the stock cast piston alloy. This is because say on a 5.3L LH6 you may have a sleeve that's 0.300 thick ( vs 0.006 plasma bore) and the gen 4 has bulkheads for even those thick cylinder liners ( we literally bore the 5.3L out to 5.7L and STILL have more wall thickness left than a lot of 6.2L stock ( aka holds boost and unshrouds valves).
That behavior is exactly how you expect engines to act, you are correct in assuming the shorter stroke and conversely the improved rod to stroke length ratio/thrust angle of 4.8L can indeed lessen this effect...but it quitens as it warms and the piston expands into into bore and the bore isn't growing much....

The plasma bore piston reacts the same the problem IS the plasma bore itself paces or outgrows the thermal expansion of the stock piston because it's so thin....it grows to .005 which is nuts...when the piston might only grow .002 ( stick hyper but 0.004-7 depending on alloy 4032 or 2618 and skirt design). So instead of that cold start up slap wearing the grafal from the piston slowly at cold start for let's say 5 minutes....the Gen 3 plasma bore engine is wearing it when it's WARM...hence the Ceratec friction modifier ( and I found MsO2 moly to be helpful as well)...now the dealers are starting to see a lot trucks come in with cylinder damage bone stock. It took longer because they aren't turned the same rpm and smashed stop sign to stop sign but are driven more regularly....

Traditionally piston manufacturers have worked on getting that cold piston to wall as tight as possible for more stable, longer wearing, and efficient ring sealing BUT that was in traditional bores not growing at the same or greater rate...its why you won't see a built gen 3 coyote with a sleeved block ( usually darton ductile iron liners WAY thicker than the plasma bore ) with a tick warm.....the trade off has historically been the same cold start up piston slap you mentioned for a few minutes NOT the entire time its running....the market tried to get them to run tighter and tighter to fully eliminate this and its why, until a certain power level 4032 forged alloy is preferred on street engines because it can be run at tighter clearances.....

You can see how the math of the piston running out of optimum spec cold a few minutes each morning on Traditional engine designs is preferable to it running out of spec the entire time it's hot ( plus no one hears that after they leave their driveway lol, you don't have old men flagging you trying to tell you that your car is knocking).
As MPR said for the plasma bore with cast piston to run at correct skirt to wall hot, it would need NEGATIVE clearance to 0.0005 ( 1/2 thousandth clearance cold) which is why ford tightened up the clearance, offset the piston pin and tried to rely on that thick grafal coating...ONE variable not accounted for though the plasma bore is hair thin, can't be reused with even the finest of scratches ( vs Traditional bores having several rebuilds worth of material in them), expanding insanely ( though you can get pistons to match from Mahle notice they are .001 oversized from stock too and in 2618 alloy), they are rock hard and that may play a role in the engine living out to 60,001 miles.....

Also as mentioned with the 4.8L shorter stroke, don't mistake the fact your engines will pull to 7500 factory as having the correct bottom end geometry to do so, its horrible geometry for RPM from an engine builders perspective, it's entirely the DOHC and head setup that flows there but that bottom end isn't happy , the piston comes way out the bottom with terrible angularity compared to other high rpm purpose built engines....

Its crystal clear what the problem is and has been and why the Predator doesn't tick ( same bore but forged pistons)....why sleeved built engines don't tick either.....

Also the 10 speed which has let me down twice at 700whp is really start to become an issue on the trucks...I went over mine with the tran tech and I like the overall design it needs a bit more room for clutch material and more surface area for converter grip ( looks like the Mach I is getting that) but above all it's needs serviceable clutch group solenoids so that an entire $1000 isn't spent for an entire valvebody, fluid, filter, and reprogramming to your PCM....user serviceable would help a lot....

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