FYI: Coyote 5.0 Plasma Transfer Wire Arc cylinder liners

[sk47]

Hello; To those who have responded since my question seems to have revived this thread, Thanks for the replies.
I gather there are two opposing schools of thought. I am not yet in a position to know or have an informed opinion. So far BlueCollarDaily's take on the issues are backed up by hands on experience. I have enough personal experience wrenching to find the comments very compelling. At this point I will wait a while before making a purchase of a new GT or F-150.

To those who are convinced the issues are not something to be concerned about, I understand about cars making noises that are part of the deal. Not so easy to accept excessive oil consumption as "normal". Some noises are merely annoying and are to be put up with. I get it. If the noises turn out to be truly "normal" aspects and not indicators of problems such will be good to know.
Not sure how to square the reports of lots of engine blocks being replaced and some of the videos of strange noises I have found. I guess it could be a case of a small percentage of folks having problems and the majority not having the issues. I did ask Ford about that very thing but they would not tell me one way or another. So I came to this site looking for information from people I figure are in a position to know.

I am sincere in wanting to buy a Mustang GT. Had two deals on GT's fall apart last year. One time I talked out the deal on the phone and drove from Tennessee to Ohio. Had a proper check from my bank as they had requested. When the paper work started they wanted my SS number. Since I was not financing I refused to give it out and left. I later found out directly from Ohio DMV it is a state law that dealers get the SS# from everyone.
A friend whom I have used my truck to help a number of times was supposed to drive me back up but failed to show up twice two weeks in a row and the car was sold to someone else.

The other GT was pictured in the dealer ad as all white which is the color I want. (dark blue, grey and silver also being fine) We worked out the deal and I drove to Nicholasville KY in December. When I saw the car a black wrap had been put on the roof and a few other places. I had heard of a wrap but do not have any experience with them. The dealer told me I could remove it but he was not willing to do so. May have been just as well since I was depending on that same friend to drive me back up there and get my other car since I was not going to trade.

I guess ford will still continue to make F-150's and GT's. They will have to come up with a fix for the oil consumption and the ten speed trans especially in the F-150. I do not see how they can mess with all those F-150 drivers for sure, not to mention the Mustang owners.

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[sk47]

At this point I will wait a while before making a purchase of a new GT or F-150.

Hello; My plan has been to buy a new GT with a manual transmission. After doing some searching for information both here and several other places I have decided to wait before shopping again. Not sure what sort of news it will take to ease my mind at this point. While I understand some do not think the issues being discussed are real problems, there does appear to be enough sound evidence behind the claims to take them seriously.

The thing first causing me to think there is some real basic problem for at least excessive oil consumption is the TSB Ford put out with regard to the Coyote V-8 oil consumption in the F-150 trucks. That TSB describes a patch more or less rather than a fix. The reprograming of the PCM so the throttle body throttle plate does not close all the way is not , to my thinking, a fix for whatever the cause of excessive oil consumption. That patch in effect allows for the strong vacuum created during the intake stroke to more easily pull air thru the throttle body and thus reduce the vacuum pull in other places inside the engine, for example past the piston rings.
My first unsupported guess has been for some reason the rings are not seated properly and the vacuum is pulling oil past the rings during the intake stroke. This seemed to be supported with language Ford added to that TSB when Ford mentioned oil consumption being reduced after 10,000 miles. There are other ways oil can make it into a combustion chamber to be sure and that TSB patch would help if the oil is being pulled past the, for example, valve stem seals also.

The other part of the TSB is the dipstick is exchanged from one that shows around a quart from full to the add oil measure mark to a dipstick that shows around two quarts or more from full to the add oil point. ( Saw in a video on the F-150 where two fellows had that new dipstick from Ford in a new truck. The took care to measure the range on that new dipstick and it was over two quarts. )
I can see how in a ten quart capacity engine the loss of two or three quarts is not as bad as it would be in the older six quart capacity engines. That is not what drew my attention. It is that the engines were first sold with the traditional one quart range dipstick. To me this means Ford did not expect the engines to need a two quart plus range to be considered "normal".

After starting my search for information some other issues are part of the Coyote engine picture. The typewriter tick after an oil change and the low RPM rattle, around 2000 RPM, I have found to be topics of discussion. I do not personally have an opinion on these two things for which I have confidence. The noises are real. They may or may not be something for concern.
I am still trying to think of why an oil change might trigger the start of a noise the engine did not have just before the oil change. The only guess I can come up with off hand is the brief time it can take to fill up an oil filter before the engine is fully pressurized.
When I change oil I try to fill the new oil filter before attaching it to the engine. Not a problem in my current Silverado as the oil filter does not have to be tilted when installed. On my Nissan the oil filter has to been tilted sideways so I can only get it filled about half way. I do get all the filter material soaked with oil anyway.

After All that, I have one more question. My plan B is to consider buying an older Mustang. Can anyone direct me to where to find a discussion in this forum about the merits of the older Mustangs? I have done some looking and did not yet find threads or forum places for such. If that sort of discussion does not exist where would it be best to start that sort of thread?

Thanks again for the responses.

 

[GreenS550]

Hello; I have read this thread thru a couple of times. Joined the site today. I plan to buy A Mustang GT and eventually an F-150 with a V-8. Walked away from a deal on an F-150 a few weeks ago over concerns about Coyote V-8 oil consumption I happened to learn of.

I have nothing of value to add at this point. Hope to keep up with the issue. I guess the best would be to learn Ford has found a fix and new Coyote engines are OK. Next could be finding out what sort of percentage of these engines are affected. I did try to get an answer on that directly from Ford but they were not saying a few weeks ago.

I know about the TSB for the F-150 V-8's. I guess the top speculation is the new plasma method of lining the cylinders results in piston rings not seating is still the number one guess. I just read in a different thread on this site about how replacing the PCV helped with engine noise and falls into place as a possible culprit for oil consumption. I am following that thread also. I hope Ford or some one comes up with an answer before long.

Note- For what it is worth there is a story about why I drive a Silverado. Had an F-150 which was totaled in 2004. That was the introduction year for a revised F-150. The dealers only had loaded up trucks and were not making deals. The Chevy dealer was dealing and had a less loaded truck available. Hope my having a Chevy does not make a difference to anyone. I went to Ford first for what such is worth.

Don't buy the V-8. Get the 3.5 twin turbo or the 2.7 turbo. They make a lot more torque and better gas mileage. My 2019 Ranger with the 2.3 turbo will run rings around a 5.0 F-150. I know as I have had an F-150 with the Coyote and then an Explorer with the 3.5 TT. The Explorer weighed roughly the same as the F-150 but the Explorer was a rocket ship. As an example, the 3.5TT in my SHO (4,500 pound) with only a tune turned 1 12.99 at 105 at Milan a few years ago.

The 5.0 is the perfect engine for the Mustang, not so in the F-150. Just my opinion. Good luck on your choice.

 

[GreenS550]

Forums like this are a magnet for folks who have had issues, hence it appears that there are more issues than there really are. Get whatever you want but ignore the naysayers. And, get a CPO 100K powertrain warranty if you are worried.

You will not have a problem. Ford makes the best American made cars for sure...

 

[sk47]

Don't buy the V-8. Get the 3.5 twin turbo or the 2.7 turbo. They make a lot more torque and better gas mileage. My 2019 Ranger with the 2.3 turbo will run rings around a 5.0 F-150. I know as I have had an F-150 with the Coyote and then an Explorer with the 3.5 TT. The Explorer weighed roughly the same as the F-150 but the Explorer was a rocket ship. As an example, the 3.5TT in my SHO (4,500 pound) with only a tune turned 1 12.99 at 105 at Milan a few years ago.

The 5.0 is the perfect engine for the Mustang, not so in the F-150. Just my opinion. Good luck on your choice.

Hello; I have a dislike of turbo engines that comes from the 1960's. My father bought an 1963 Oldsmobile Cutlass Jetfire. It had an aluminum block V-8 that displaced 215 cubic inches. It was turbocharged. Note - this was before they started running engine oil thru the bearings. Anyway I was the one driving it when it threw a rod thru the block. The dealer replaced the engine but switched it over to a four barrel. The trouble I got in is still remembered.

I know the modern turbos are so very much better. Better materials, better designs for things like the waste gates. Not even the lag some early ones had. I know, should I live a bit longer, the forces that be will force me into a turbo engine or even a battery car. I am old and want a V-8 for now. A friend of mine has a Ford car with a V-6 and twin turbos. He likes it

 

[sk47]

Forums like this are a magnet for folks who have had issues, hence it appears that there are more issues than there really are. Get whatever you want but ignore the naysayers. And, get a CPO 100K powertrain warranty if you are worried.

You will not have a problem. Ford makes the best American made cars for sure...

Hello; thanks for the civil response. I follow your points and would have dismissed the internet forum stuff for similar reasons to those you cite. It was the Ford TSB for the F-150 that put me on alert. I do tend to do my homework anymore so to speak. I have jumped into purchases in the past without checking things out largely because there was not a thing like the web to go to.

I do appreciate the helpful folks on this forum. Thanks.

 

[Dfeeds]

Life is too short for all the what ifs. I had my engine replaced under warranty but don't regret my purchase.

Oil consumption, while it can be an issue, is very dependent on how you drive. Assuming there's nothing wrong with the engine, cruising around town won't have the same impact as consistent WOT pulls. The people with a catch can are a good example. It's noted that there's a lot more oil in the can during hard use. My last two OCIs had an imperceptible amount of consumption. Although, this last change. I've been a lot harder on the car. Quite a bit more long trips and spirited driving. I lost about 1/2 quart, give or take, in 5k. It wasn't a progressive loss, either. I had to make the same 16 hour trip twice this year. The first time I had a passenger so I was easy on the pedal. The second time I was alone and got on it a few times and sat around 4k-5k rpms on a couple twisty roads. On the first trip my oil level remained constant. On the second trip my oil level dropped a bit.

The rattle is another matter, but you won't escape it. Contrary to what so many say I don't think it's piston slap. My reasoning is because I do have piston slap on very cold days (sub freezing and my car has been sitting for 10 hours outside). It's heard around the same rpm range as the 2k rattle but sounds a bit more metallic, and it doesn't last very long at all. The rattle persists but does quiet down a bit once warmed up. I have my theories as well as others but that's all it is, so I won't bother speculating.


I do find it interesting that the ptwa liner's thermal expansion came up. I also shared the theory, over a year back, that the PTWA liners may have a higher thermal expansion coefficient than the hypereutectic pistons. But without knowing the thermal expansion coefficient of the PTWA liners and block, or the amount of silicon used in the pistons, there's no way to know anything for certain. I just have to hope that a group of well paid engineers know more than my arm chair science and engineering. Then again, there's always the corporate brilliance that pushes an unrealistic idea and follows it up with "just make it happen," but I won't go there.

Alas, my new engine build date predates 2019. I think it's September 2018, if I recall. But the only noise I hear, when it's fully warmed up, are the fuel injectors. 15k miles and nothing has changed.

 

[GregO]

I do find it interesting that the ptwa liner's thermal expansion came up. I also shared the theory, over a year back, that the PTWA liners may have a higher thermal expansion coefficient than the hypereutectic pistons.

The word “liner” doesn’t apply to PTWA.
PTWA much like Nikasil coating are applied to the aluminum engine block bore, these coatings are typically .004”to .008” thickness.
The coated cylinders thermal expansion is nearly the same as the piston resulting in the ability to run piston to cylinder wall clearances of .0015”to .002”.

PTWA vs. Nikasil;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_transferred_wire_arc_thermal_spraying

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil

 

[WildHorse]

these coatings are typically .004”to .008” thickness.

And one hone job will wipe that out. Then what? Back to liners, or purchase a crate engine.

 

[GregO]

And one hone job will wipe that out. Then what? Back to liners, or purchase a crate engine.

What type of hone are you referring to ?

 

[Dfeeds]

The word “liner” doesn’t apply to PTWA.
PTWA much like Nikasil coating are applied to the aluminum engine block bore, these coatings are typically .004”to .008” thickness.
The coated cylinders thermal expansion is nearly the same as the piston resulting in the ability to run piston to cylinder wall clearances of .0015”to .002”.

PTWA vs. Nikasil;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_transferred_wire_arc_thermal_spraying

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil

Dude... semantics, but you're right. More to the point, where are you getting your info on the thermal expansion coefficient? Anything I can find points to the thermal expansion to be suitable for forged aluminum pistons. The latter, as I'm sure you know, experiences more thermal expansion.

The process may very well be able to be tweaked to change the thermal expansion coefficient (much like using different amounts of silicon in hypereutectic pistons). Moreover, different piston rings can be used to account for any differences in expansion.


What doesn't add up from what BlueCollar was talking about is the cylinder pressure being less in his newer blocks. A drop in cylinder pressure would imply that there is actually more clearance between the bore and piston.

If the piston's expansion couldn't match that of the coating, then wouldn't an even greater clearance be counter productive?

Either way, I'm not sure if it's worth wracking my brain over it all. It's all incredibly fascinating but I have yet to see anything go beyond conjecture.


EDIT: Spelling

 

[GregO]

What doesn't add up from what BlueCollar was talking about is the cylinder pressure being less in his newer blocks. A drop in cylinder pressure would imply that there is actually more clearance between the bore and piston.

About semantics, my only intention was that thread readers understand that PTWA coating is not a liner or a sleeve.

My opinion on the loss or drop in cylinder pressure is due to improper ring break-in and the use of Full synthetic oil before the rings achieve over 80% seal.
The best source for proper break-in is to read and follow the guidelines Ford has published for the 5.2 VooDoo motor. We're talking about modern low tension rings, with that comes the responsibility of the owners to follow proper break-in to achieve near 100% ring seal. Getting to 80% ring seal is easy, that last 20% isn't so easy.
Coated cylinders are easily glazed if full synthetic oil is used before the rings seal to near 100%. When the cylinders glaze, kiss compression and ring seal good bye.
Break-in the motor as Ford recommends with the correct oil and PTWA coated cylinder will outlive the pistons and rings.

 

[Dfeeds]

About semantics, my only intention was that thread readers understand that PTWA coating is not a liner or a sleeve.

My opinion on the loss or drop in cylinder pressure is due to improper ring break-in and the use of Full synthetic oil before the rings achieve over 80% seal.
The best source for proper break-in is to read and follow the guidelines Ford has published for the 5.2 VooDoo motor. We're talking about modern low tension rings, with that comes the responsibility of the owners to follow proper break-in to achieve near 100% ring seal. Getting to 80% ring seal is easy, that last 20% isn't so easy.
Coated cylinders are easily glazed if full synthetic oil is used before the rings seal to near 100%. When the cylinders glaze, kiss compression and ring seal good bye.
Break-in the motor as Ford recommends with the correct oil and PTWA coated cylinder will outlive the pistons and rings.

You do realize Ford's factory fill for the gt350 is a full synthetic, right?

 

[GregO]

If the piston's expansion couldn't match that of the coating, then wouldn't an even greater clearance be counter productive?

I'm not sure why you don't think the piston expansion can't match the coated cylinder ?
The coating thickness is .004" to .008" thick, most don't realize how thin the cylinder coating are. Most think the thickness is in the range of 1/16” to 1/8" then honed to size.
With a coating thickness of .004" to .008" the expansion of the coated cylinder and OEM piston (hypereutectic) is nearly the same.
If your referring to 2618 and 4032 pistons then yes those need an bit more room to grow. If your talking OEM style hypereutectic then .0015" to .002" piston clearance is the magic number.

 

[GregO]

You do realize Ford's factory fill for the gt350 is a full synthetic, right?

We read that the GT350 is factory filled with full syn.
I'm not convinced that those hand built 5.2's don't have a break-in blend oil from the factory. That's why I subscribe to not dumping the factory fill oil before the end of the break-in period.

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