FYI: Coyote 5.0 Plasma Transfer Wire Arc cylinder liners

[sk47]

Hello; I have read this thread thru a couple of times. Joined the site today. I plan to buy A Mustang GT and eventually an F-150 with a V-8. Walked away from a deal on an F-150 a few weeks ago over concerns about Coyote V-8 oil consumption I happened to learn of.

I have nothing of value to add at this point. Hope to keep up with the issue. I guess the best would be to learn Ford has found a fix and new Coyote engines are OK. Next could be finding out what sort of percentage of these engines are affected. I did try to get an answer on that directly from Ford but they were not saying a few weeks ago.

I know about the TSB for the F-150 V-8's. I guess the top speculation is the new plasma method of lining the cylinders results in piston rings not seating is still the number one guess. I just read in a different thread on this site about how replacing the PCV helped with engine noise and falls into place as a possible culprit for oil consumption. I am following that thread also. I hope Ford or some one comes up with an answer before long.

Note- For what it is worth there is a story about why I drive a Silverado. Had an F-150 which was totaled in 2004. That was the introduction year for a revised F-150. The dealers only had loaded up trucks and were not making deals. The Chevy dealer was dealing and had a less loaded truck available. Hope my having a Chevy does not make a difference to anyone. I went to Ford first for what such is worth.

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[jake_zx2]

Oh my god, I can’t believe we’re talking about this 2 years later

TL;DR for the whole thread... Coyotes don’t have oil consumption issues, the tick isn’t a real problem, the plasma-arc bore liners are fine, and the failure rate for Coyotes is VERY low

 

[sk47]

Oh my god, I can’t believe we’re talking about this 2 years later

TL;DR for the whole thread... Coyotes don’t have oil consumption issues, the tick isn’t a real problem, the plasma-arc bore liners are fine, and the failure rate for Coyotes is VERY low

Hello; Thanks for the reply. I tended to dismiss the oil consumption issue for the F-150's until I found the TSB issued by Ford. That TSB does seem to add some creditability to the issue. I am pleased to find someone who can put this to rest so quickly. Can you tell me what you have learned that makes you sure this is a non -issue?

My research is, of course, from sites on the web. There seemed to be a good number of reports from owners of both Mustangs and F-150's about the oil burning. It figures in any mass produced item some percentage will have problems. From where I sit I do not have special knowledge or access to information so am seeking that information here.

Thanks

 

[sk47]

I can’t believe we’re talking about this 2 years later

Hello; Yes I gather this has been discussed here before. However this is somewhat new information to me. I did let a good deal get by me on an F-150 and I do hope to buy a Mustang. My goal is to get current information so I can go looking for a GT without the worry there is some potential serious flaw that Ford has not fixed.

 

[sk47]

There will be a certain percentage of any manufactured product that will have issues. I don’t believe oil consumption is a very large percentage problem.

Just a little math. Ford sold 900k f150s in 2019. If 25% of those were 5.0s that’s 675,000 trucks over the last 3 revised engine years. If the usage failure rate was high, say 5% or 1 in 20, that would equal 34k trucks. The footprint on the internet over this issue would be massive at that failure rate. I would guess at its peak was more like .5% or likely much less(1 in 200).

That said my car(18) used oil until it was broken in. Somewhere around a quart every 2500 miles until 10k. Now it uses almost none at 15k miles and I am not easy on it.

In my book this is a none existent issue at this point.

Hello; Your experience does seem to support the notion that for some reason the new series of Coyote engines takes a while to seat the rings. That was mentioned in the TSB for the F-150 engines.
I do follow your logic in that if this is a wide spread issue then it ought to become more common knowledge. Purely as a WAG I was thinking maybe 1 in a 1000. Had Ford told me those were the odds a few weeks ago I likely would have done the purchase.

I guess I am no longer so trustful of manufacturers. There was the Pinto back a few decades ago. That was when the top of the fuel tank was the trunk floor of the car. A number of people burned form rear end collisions. It was later alleged Ford was aware of the problem and apparently decided to pay off the lawsuits rather than recall and fix the issue. At least such was the story.
I worked on some and owned a Porsche 914 back in the 1970 and 80's. Kept up with the brand and had planned to buy a Cayman. Never got one and I guess I may have been lucky I waited. They had the IMS (intermediate shaft bearing) problem and I think it took them over ten years to do a fix. Had to re-configure that bearing so it is fed by pressurized engine oil in 2009.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

I've had 3 long blocks in 8k miles...there was a production revision around May 2019 build dates....where piston to wall clearance was revised, since the thermal expansion of a cast piston cant match that of the plasma bore in a 5.0 mustang ( the voodoo oil consumption issues where they had to upgrade to a predator block are a different story ), they even revised the harmonic balancer to the point of needing a different puller to take it off...my last 2 long blocks also had significantly less cranking cylinder pressure using the same gauge as before...changing from 220-230 psi to 175-185 psi, indicating a slight drop in compression or a change in cams ect....

Whatever they did, the original engine ( build date 2018 ) sounded like a Cummings Diesel at idle and off idle, the 2nd one was SO smooth( i kept it to rebuilt it only had 988 miles on it) and quite that I didn't even realize how loud the first one was till it went in and the 3rd doesn't tick but has 2k rattle pretty bad...its held up decently over 6000 miles now..compression in all cylinders stabilized to 185psi ( 8 was the last to break in) which is about what you would expect out of the 15-17s 11 to 1, not the 18up 12 to 1 compression....and 40psi less using the same gauge than the original engine...

The Blackstone oil analysis comparing the first engines first oil change to the 3rds first oil change would support that it was always going to eat itself....
I need to do another Blackstone analysis on this 3rd engine on next oil change to get a more clear picture how its wearing in...aluminum was a bit high....

Your talking trucks in 2020 i wouldn't be scared at all....having been in possession of a loose loud ass gen 3 coyote vs a smooth super quite revision later, your ownership experience can be drastically different.....HOWEVER I would easily buy again in 2020 model...the 10r80 is more of a variable than the engine....especially if I were getting a mustang or truck I planned to keep warranty on....if its a truck by extended warranty....a car just beat the snot out of it 20k miles, then do as you will with it....I though being affected by engine and trans before in 2020 they have worked the kinks out and the juice is worth the squeeze.....

Personally I take that super quite core, possibly over winter and build it with a piston which complements the plasma bore and im sure it will last longer than my heart......

If you like it buy it especially if your not going to void warranty....2020s seem to run on average a lot quiter.....it doesn't even need to be something wrong, but having had both a loose loud engine and a quite one in the same car...I can tell you the ownership experience is quite different...id call on people that haven't experienced it to have a little compassion for those that have because trust me its WORLDS apart....
For what it's worth my 3rd engine uses almost nothing for oil and its boosted at about 700whp....

 

[sk47]

the 10r80 is more of a variable than the engine....especially if I were getting a mustang or truck I planned to keep warranty on....if its a truck by extended warranty....a car just beat the snot out of it 20k miles, then do as you will with it....I though being affected by engine and trans before in 2020 they have worked the kinks out and the juice is worth the squeeze.....

Hello; Yes I have been seeing posts and stories about the 10 speed trans during my search. My neighbor works for the local water company. His boss got a new F-150 with that trans. Apparently That truck has been in the shop a number of times for the transmission.

I guess my thinking is in a similar way in that I figure Ford ought to have corrected any issues that are easy to fix. The caution for me is if the problems are inherent to the basic engine building process. The Porsche IMS bearing failures went on for over ten years. My understanding is they got that bearing failure issue somewhat cured by 2008 but did not actually get the fix right until 2009. In 2009 they revised the engine block to feed engine oil pressure to a revised bearing.

I have learned enough about the plasma lining to ask questions but do not know enough to have an opinion. I am somewhat familiar with pressed in sleeves in aluminum blocks but this plasma lining is new to me.

I begin to understand this is not a popular topic for some members here. Had some curious things not happened I would already have a GT. Since learning of the topic it made sense to me to check it out before trying to buy again. I do not doubt Ford will fix this problem if it affects a large enough portion of the engine production. I just have not found information about the issue being fixed yet. Thanks

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Hello; Yes I have been seeing posts and stories about the 10 speed trans during my search. My neighbor works for the local water company. His boss got a new F-150 with that trans. Apparently That truck has been in the shop a number of times for the transmission.

I guess my thinking is in a similar way in that I figure Ford ought to have corrected any issues that are easy to fix. The caution for me is if the problems are inherent to the basic engine building process. The Porsche IMS bearing failures went on for over ten years. My understanding is they got that bearing failure issue somewhat cured by 2008 but did not actually get the fix right until 2009. In 2009 they revised the engine block to feed engine oil pressure to a revised bearing.

I have learned enough about the plasma lining to ask questions but do not know enough to have an opinion. I am somewhat familiar with pressed in sleeves in aluminum blocks but this plasma lining is new to me.

I begin to understand this is not a popular topic for some members here. Had some curious things not happened I would already have a GT. Since learning of the topic it made sense to me to check it out before trying to buy again. I do not doubt Ford will fix this problem if it affects a large enough portion of the engine production. I just have not found information about the issue being fixed yet. Thanks

Well its actually more cut and dry than many here would like to admit, if you want the actual root truth its physics...
I got obsessed for a while as I've been building, tuning and racing my own engines for 30 years...I knew the tick, oil consumption, 2k rattle decel rattle wasn't any of the things Ford was saying it was initially before tsb7718 stopped their hemorrhaging on buybacks....
Its really this simple, the plasma bore is between .006-.008 thick vs a traditional liner being say .250...so first if its off alignment it can't be squared as there isn't enough material to hone it with torque plates. In addition it cannot be rebuild its a boat anchor or a $3200 trip with shipping both ways for sleeves if you even get a hairline scratch...MPR measured the growth at normal 200 degree water circulation at .005 ( that doesn't include combustion temps which is why it hold better with e85), NO cast piston in existence can match that thermal expansion rate. As the engine heats and the super thin but rock hard plasma bore expands the piston skirt to wall clearance grows and the piston begins to rock at BDC even with the newer offset wrist pin design ( JE was literally able to measure knock of this) if the grafal wears then that rocking at BDC can lead to flaking on the plasma bore...the rings then stop oscillating catching in that area and here comes the scoring...then eventually the secondary ring catches breaking its ring land...vs the traditional top ring lands we are used to seeing fail in high heat/boosted apps with detonation....all my pistons in all my bores and 99% of all instances I found were secondary ring lands not top....the stock piston is well made and would be very durable in the gen 2 iron sleeves....

The QC process and basic clearances have tightened up but as MPR said, you would have to start at negative to 0.0005 piston to wall cold to be in spec using traditional engine building practices this is impractical.....obviously...

But as I said they have tightened it up and I suspect they simply want to get it behind the 60k....even if you suffer ticks ( some which are rod end clearance) 2k and decel rattles....its much better just get an extended warranty....

That's the end of the negative here is the positive....the block is strong as hell....12mm head bolts, added bosses to the coolant passages to support the cylinders, 4 knock sensors, GT350 oil pump and sump sizes with 10qt pan, bigger cams, stiffer valve springs, bigger valves better flowing heads...good stock rotator.....
The plasma bore has proven it can handle big power when setup properly with a forged piston like the Gen 2 Voodoo ( predator block) or GT500 ( Predator block with forged pistons )....luckily aftermarket piston manufacturers figured this out for us....
Mahle offers a literal drop in NO rebalance kit with a NICE 2618 forged piston and DI dispersion in the crown, coated wrist pins and a ring set made for plasma bore use...hang that on your stock rotator change nothing its 12 to 1...gap rings for intended use and roll......problem solved 2618 can better match the bores thermal expansion rates...no 2k rattle...

JE has offset pin designs for Gen 3 coyote that utilize their perfect skirt, since the bores can't be brought true and square due to not having enough thickness, their perfect skirt pistons for Gen 3 go in SUPER tight....I was told there would be so much drag id thing something was wrong by the time I got the 8th one in...on initial fire up it sheds the outer layer in the first 45 minutes to break in to the individual bore( since bores can't be brought square and true ) at temp for the remaining life of the piston.....

The blocks can be had for $850 to your door final honed and ready to assemble ( I've spent this at a machine shop getting a old BBC in good order to build ) imho a good value.....

For fairly cheap you can have an extremely durable engine for 93 or e85 with no 2k rattle or ticks....
Poll people that have built engines in their cars sleeved or not, you will find regardless of pushback here THEY don't exhibit these "normal" behaviors anymore because they all use forged pistons that can match that thermal expansion and to a lesser degree rods with QC on side clearance more on the money......
So insert what reasons ford gives you and anyone else then contact someone with a built engine....all of those things will be the same, often including the plasma bore vs sleeves, with the only changes being piston alloy and in some cases rods...SAME everything else no ticks and rattles after first oil change....lol....tip if friction modifiers can stop it like ceretec for a while, then friction is causing it......not normal......

Its a crapshoot in 2020 I wouldn't hesitate to buy either with extended warranty, or with the understanding if I am going to put power on it be ready to drop some pistons or piston/rods in it especially on 93....

 

[sk47]

plasma bore is between .006-.008 thick vs a traditional liner being say .250

NO cast piston in existence can match that thermal expansion rate.

piston skirt to wall clearance grows and the piston begins to rock at BDC

NICE 2618 forged piston

problem solved 2618 can better match the bores thermal expansion rates...no 2k rattle...

Hello; Took my time reading thru your post. Nice thing is I can still mostly follow the technical stuff. I understand the desire to save weight and can see how a thin hard liner will save weight. Something like 120 pounds per engine block if memory serves.

I follow the thermal expansion difference between cast and forged pistons. Your account of the thermal expansion difference between the thin hard iron plasma lining and the engine block makes sense. The fix you illustrate also makes sense. Try to get the materials expanding and contracting at near the same rate.

I hope to avoid having to do the fix you describe myself. Been over twenty years since I got that deep into an engine and I do not have a decent place to work right now. I will keep watching to see if Ford makes any announcements. The way I figure they might do it is not to say they have a fix, but to announce something like how they made some upgrades to the engines which will include the use of forged pistons.

Thanks for taking the time to post. I enjoyed reading it.

 

[GT Pony]

I got obsessed for a while as I've been building, tuning and racing my own engines for 30 years...I knew the tick, oil consumption, 2k rattle decel rattle wasn't any of the things Ford was saying it was initially before tsb7718 stopped their hemorrhaging on buybacks....

To clarify, it was SSM 7718, which specifically only addressed the BBQ tick (Ford calls it the 'typewriter tick') which has been around since the Coyote was first introduced. Never has been an SSM or TSB put out by Ford for the 2k rattle.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Seems there are three and perhaps more things being discussed with the Ford F-150 and Mustang with V-8. The excessive oil consumption first caught my attention several weeks ago while searching about a 2019 F-150.
I guess there are points of view and points of evidence about this and the other reported issues. To be more clear my current point of view in to find enough information so I will be comfortable if I go ahead with the purchase of a new Mustang or F-150. The outcome that perhaps will be best is to find at some point Ford has made corrections and these things are not a concern.
A less desired outcome might be that the issues, all or some, are annoyances to live with but are not hurting the engines long term. This may turn out to be true for some but my early take is this does not seem likely for all. In my reading I find several reports of engines or long blocks being replaced. I also have found reports of cylinder wall scoring which appears to be fatal with the very thin plasma wire coating in the third generation Coyote. Earlier generations had the older style liners and I guess can still be honed and made true.

(Side note on a rattle noise. I read in a thread on this forum about how a member traced a noise to a noisy PCV. Apparently the PCV valve was replaced and the noise went away. I have shaken these things and they do rattle when shaken. Even if not the cause of the other noises, a cheap enough thing to try. Also one of the things I try if oil consumption is a question.)

Some engine noises are easier to live with that others. One of my neighbors had a Chevy V-8 with the piston slap common to those engines in the late 90's and early 2000's. I could hear it when she started up in the morning at 100 feet away. The engines ran a long time that way. With high pressure DI and composit parts I guess we can expect some noises.

I looked at a few forums when searching a few weeks ago and decided to join this one. Already pleased that i did .

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

To clarify, it was SSM 7718, which specifically only addressed the BBQ tick (Ford calls it the 'typewriter tick') which has been around since the Coyote was first introduced. Never has been an SSM or TSB put out by Ford for the 2k rattle.

Correct on SSM 7718, I been thru this with Ford to further clarify isn't it interesting that a SSM that affects engines back to 2011 was ONLY generated in February of 2019 bahahaha.....its because they needed to do 2 things....

1. Stop the hemorrhaging brought on by a significant increase in the amount of customers requesting buybacks because their engines become obnoxious ticking and technically if you just have to be specific covering noises made to 1700rpm vs 2k rattle hehe....
2. To put a barrier between YOU and a GOOD dealership....it precluded them from even doing diagnostics for anything sound related, again i went thru this i had to pay for my own borescope test....it stopped good dealers from saying yea thats to much lets diagnose.....it was all for Ford zero for customer....and something the dealer could hide behind, quite evil actually....

Now that SSM includes engines back to 2011, yet it was only released on 2019 to stop the buybacks and diagnostic cost. Did people not have the internet 15-17? Why did it only become a problem to the point they HAD to release that shied after the up"tick" in complaints from 18up customers...

Also to clarify it ended up being NONE of the things Ford previously said on earlier years nor did it sound the same....I was told everything from phasers ( which were redesigned for 18up and wouldn't be part of 2011-2020) to chain tensioner, IMRC enter laundry list of excuses....it was none of those things.....even DI which was their go to for a while, and once I got a quite engine I COULD hear my DI but thats not what it was, lol.....

My lawyer said its comical they admit in that SSM only released once the 2018UP resulted in more customer dissatisfaction at a higher rate, that it implicitly admits the engines operating characteristics will change AFTER the first oil change so what your demo and make your purchasing decision on, can change significantly after the first oil change, causing operational characteristics you wouldn't have purchased had it been present at demo OR had it been disclosed at time of sale....( I bought my cars just weeks before they released this SSM id never have bought it after )....she said its classic bait n switch easy peasy lemon law...

I followed a guy who the shop kept using SSM 7718 as a shield till he also borescoped it out of pocket...several in fact....ive seen dealerships literally get in trouble for performing diagnostics after SSM7718...ive seen them have to pretend they don't hear it and when I made em bring another car around pretend they are both doing it LOL..it was so obvious my wife could hear it 20ft away....all ticks aren't equal but SSM7718 lumped them all together and tied the dealerships hands to help you.....

That was my experiences and I could talk hours on it and provide examples....take it or leave it though....

I do got to wonder if it effected engines from 2011-to Present why it took them 3 generations of the Coyote and 8 years to release the SSM hehe

 

[BlueCollarDaily]

Hello; Seems there are three and perhaps more things being discussed with the Ford F-150 and Mustang with V-8. The excessive oil consumption first caught my attention several weeks ago while searching about a 2019 F-150.
I guess there are points of view and points of evidence about this and the other reported issues. To be more clear my current point of view in to find enough information so I will be comfortable if I go ahead with the purchase of a new Mustang or F-150. The outcome that perhaps will be best is to find at some point Ford has made corrections and these things are not a concern.
A less desired outcome might be that the issues, all or some, are annoyances to live with but are not hurting the engines long term. This may turn out to be true for some but my early take is this does not seem likely for all. In my reading I find several reports of engines or long blocks being replaced. I also have found reports of cylinder wall scoring which appears to be fatal with the very thin plasma wire coating in the third generation Coyote. Earlier generations had the older style liners and I guess can still be honed and made true.

(Side note on a rattle noise. I read in a thread on this forum about how a member traced a noise to a noisy PCV. Apparently the PCV valve was replaced and the noise went away. I have shaken these things and they do rattle when shaken. Even if not the cause of the other noises, a cheap enough thing to try. Also one of the things I try if oil consumption is a question.)

Some engine noises are easier to live with that others. One of my neighbors had a Chevy V-8 with the piston slap common to those engines in the late 90's and early 2000's. I could hear it when she started up in the morning at 100 feet away. The engines ran a long time that way. With high pressure DI and composit parts I guess we can expect some noises.

I looked at a few forums when searching a few weeks ago and decided to join this one. Already pleased that i did .

I took the time since you seem genuine, let me tell you one more thing, every time I needed an engine it was a national back order and each batch that come off the line would literally sell literally in days....we are talking factory long blocks here not crate engines......the entity that had to buy mine had to move because what was available Friday was down to 3 by the following Tuesday for example....whats that tell you...when Ford did my first one its a small dealership and they done others....

My good friend has been a ford tech for over 20 years and told me initially the Coyote was a great engine...first of this year he said he had replaced more engines than he had combined since 2011 ( primarily f150s its the only reason I'm mentioning that anecdotal evidence)...

Ask yourself one question, if its normal and its been known about since 2011 ( even thought all those engine have different components haha), means they discovered its normal...so why can't they say WHAT IT IS, instead of its normal?

Maybe its Symantecs, maybe its normal for a Gen 3 Coyote to tick but that isn't the same as saying the Gen 3 tick( 2k and decel rattle) is normal operation....lol....

Truly good luck bud id be a lot less worried in 2020, and I dont mind having to build my own anyway so it works out for me....I will update when I do make a singe change of piston and nothing else to prove what the tick/2k rattle is...I kinda got to do it got posterity now...I won't use a single other non Ford part not even a bolt ill change pistons only and track engine on break in with my wireless mics and Blackstone, I have zero problems admitting if I am wrong....but only one way to prove it change JUST the piston and that piston only being a different alloy ( this has already been done if you want to search hehe its what it is)....

 

[GT Pony]

My good friend has been a ford tech for over 20 years and told me initially the Coyote was a great engine...first of this year he said he had replaced more engines than he had combined since 2011 ( primarily f150s its the only reason I'm mentioning that anecdotal evidence)...

Ask yourself one question, if its normal and its been known about since 2011 ( even thought all those engine have different components haha), means they discovered its normal...so why can't they say WHAT IT IS, instead of its normal?

Yes, Ford has never said what really causes the BBQ/typewriter tick. Did you ever talk to your Ford Tech friend and ask him if he ever tore any BBQ ticking engines apart and measured the bottom end (ie, specifically rod side clearances)? Excessive rod side clearances have been my theory for some time now. Some say it's because of 'oil cavitation', but if that was true why wouldn't Ford just say so. If it's caused by excessive clearances (out of service manual specs) then Ford wouldn't say so because that would automatically say that the engine wasn't built to drawing specifications.

 

[WildHorse]

Coyotes don’t have oil consumption issues, the tick isn’t a real problem, the plasma-arc bore liners are fine, and the failure rate for Coyotes is VERY low

This right here. people should listen to a Lambo engine (or any supercar engine) run. They'd lose their collective minds with all the noise they make. even their owners know it's all normal. Guess we have a bunch of former vtec (yo) owners here complaining.

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