Fuel systems with an OEM style bucket

[TEXAS HEAT]

We just made 4 digits today on our 2020 GT500 using our Lethal Performance fuel system with DivisionX components on e85. Drop in fuel pump solution which only replaced the driver side. Drove the car to and from the dyno and it works flawless.

There’s now need to mess with the passenger side tank at all as the aftermarket system works just like stock. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it..

If I were looking for a fuel system for my 2019 Mustang GT with a centrifugal supercharger for 750whp on e85, what would you recommend?

Sponsored

 

[TEXAS HEAT]

Definitely not a popular option, but the DW440 brushless fits in the stock bucket, has the venturi jet integrated, and should support right at 1000 rwhp on E85 if used with a boost-a-pump. No return line needed. It can also be controlled by the factory pressure-control strategy in the ECM.

I personally had a couple of bad experiences with "staged" fuel systems because you don't know the 2nd one is marginal or has failed until you need it and it's too late. With a single pump, there are signs there is a problem and you can usually fix it before smoking an engine.

Hey Mike, will you please elaborate more regarding what tuning changes would be required to make the brushless option work?

 

[engineermike]

Hey Mike, will you please elaborate more regarding what tuning changes would be required to make the brushless option work?

The dw440 brushless is run by a VFD which only requires 3 wires: hot, ground, and signal. Ground is obvious. Hot can be 12v from the FPDM module, or it can be up to 24 volts from a boost-a-pump or other dc-dc converter.

Signal is the tricky part. It takes a PWM to ground, in which ground is 100% and open is 0% IIRC. The dw440 kit instructions say to use the PCM signal to the FPDM, but this doesn’t seem to make sense because the PCM signal to the FPDM is 0-50% duty cycle signal for 0-100% output and 75% is the off signal. However, the FPDM output to the fuel pump is 0-100% duty cycle, matching the input needed for the VFD. Note that 99.9% of bap’ are installed with no tuning changes and the PID no longer controls pressure and no one is the wiser.

In either case, the lift pump output parameters in the calibration will likely need adjustment to get the PID controller within bounds, same as a boost-a-pump if tuned properly. If the PCM to FPDM signal is to be used, it appears as though the the needed parameters can be changed in the calibration to output 0-100% and even invert the DC if needed.

I really can’t say for 100% certain any of the above is correct, as I’ve just been looking into it and haven’t done it yet. It just seems to me like the BAP/DW440 combo is a simple, elegant solution if the wiring is figured out. The above sounds complicated but once it’s figured out it’s only a very few simple connections.

 

[Jackson1320]

Jackson1320 brought up having a bucket and pumps in each side of the tank. How much of a pita would this be to wire up. I kind of like this idea. I wonder what the electrical load would be. I’m also curious with 4 pumps not having to have a hug boost would it actually lessen the electrical load vs 2/3 pump system.

I’m doing mine with two stock fuel pump modules/buckets and swapping the pumps for 535lph pumps. This way I only need two fpdm’s. If you use gt350 modules you can use two fpdm’s to control one pump on each side. Then wire the second pump on each side to a h.o.B switch or wire them to come on at wot. Ether way you would only need two fpdm’s. I don’t think you will have any problems with drawing to many amps because you are only running all four pumps for a short time then the alternator will have time to recharge the battery

 

[Angrey]

The dw440 brushless is run by a VFD which only requires 3 wires: hot, ground, and signal. Ground is obvious. Hot can be 12v from the FPDM module, or it can be up to 24 volts from a boost-a-pump or other dc-dc converter.

Signal is the tricky part. It takes a PWM to ground, in which ground is 100% and open is 0% IIRC. The dw440 kit instructions say to use the PCM signal to the FPDM, but this doesn’t seem to make sense because the PCM signal to the FPDM is 0-50% duty cycle signal for 0-100% output and 75% is the off signal. However, the FPDM output to the fuel pump is 0-100% duty cycle, matching the input needed for the VFD. Note that 99.9% of bap’ are installed with no tuning changes and the PID no longer controls pressure and no one is the wiser.

In either case, the lift pump output parameters in the calibration will likely need adjustment to get the PID controller within bounds, same as a boost-a-pump if tuned properly. If the PCM to FPDM signal is to be used, it appears as though the the needed parameters can be changed in the calibration to output 0-100% and even invert the DC if needed.

I really can’t say for 100% certain any of the above is correct, as I’ve just been looking into it and haven’t done it yet. It just seems to me like the BAP/DW440 combo is a simple, elegant solution if the wiring is figured out. The above sounds complicated but once it’s figured out it’s only a very few simple connections.

I think DW now offers make/model specific drivers for their 440's. The first gen of sales was basically 3 offerings, full boogie, 2 stage ramped and PWM. Now they offer the kits and different part numbers based off the vehicle application. I'd call DW, this is probably resolved further for the end user so less brain damage.

 

[engineermike]

I think DW now offers make/model specific drivers for their 440's. ..Now they offer the kits and different part numbers based off the vehicle application. I'd call DW, this is probably resolved further for the end user so less brain damage.

The instructions I referred to in paragraph 2 of post 64 are the instructions for the 2015+ F150/mustang dw440 kit. It might work perfectly exactly as the instructions direct, but I don’t see how based on how the system works. It would be really nice if they offered it with a tested plug-n-play harness like the bap kits. Even better would be a bap/VFD dw440 combined pnp harness that would fuel well over 1k with a single, reliable, variable speed pcm-controlled pump.

 

[TEXAS HEAT]

The instructions I referred to in paragraph 2 of post 64 are the instructions for the 2015+ F150/mustang dw440 kit. It might work perfectly exactly as the instructions direct, but I don’t see how based on how the system works. It would be really nice if they offered it with a tested plug-n-play harness like the bap kits. Even better would be a bap/VFD dw440 combined pnp harness that would fuel well over 1k with a single, reliable, variable speed pcm-controlled pump.

If this gets figured out and properly vetted, then a BAP/VFD pump, 1000cc injectors and upgraded rails might be a viable solution for low boost and e85. I'm not sure at what point the stock fuel line size becomes a restriction though.

 

[Angrey]

The instructions I referred to in paragraph 2 of post 64 are the instructions for the 2015+ F150/mustang dw440 kit. It might work perfectly exactly as the instructions direct, but I don’t see how based on how the system works. It would be really nice if they offered it with a tested plug-n-play harness like the bap kits. Even better would be a bap/VFD dw440 combined pnp harness that would fuel well over 1k with a single, reliable, variable speed pcm-controlled pump.

It's a stretch. Fuel pump marketing numbers are to be taken with a grain of salt.

The 440 is badass, but it flows only 380 or so at 75 psi (370 at 80 psi).

If you assume someone would need a blower/turbo and if you assume they'd need around 20 psi above base (say 55) then at 13.5 volts, the pump is about halfway there. Using the calculator of your choice, you need about 650 liter/hour for 1250 hp at the crank.

Even boosting to a constant 18v (which DW says the pump absolutely can handle and even will handle intermittent 22V), you come short of 1k rwhp (assuming E85 and blower at 75 psi). Even at perfect efficiency and 22V, you still come up just short.

Fuel pump capabilities (HP) are almost always referencing 3 bar of pressure and naturally aspirated gasoline. In the modern real world, the more common combination is blown, E85 and some elevated pump outlet pressure indexed with boost. That "1000 hp" capable pump now ends up being much lower given different operating conditions.

I'm a huge fan of the DW440, but getting a single one to 1K rwhp would be a stretch.

 

[engineermike]

I agree that the dw440 at 22v is marginal for 1k on e85. I was actually referring to gasoline (race gas or pump).

 

[Gregory347]

Spoke with Dakota at DW… he said the pwm output signal needs to start at 40% duty cycle for the pump to run… so the tune will have to be adjusted…not sure on this maybe someone more knowledgeable can interpret..

 

[engineermike]

Spoke with Dakota at DW… he said the pwm output signal needs to start at 40% duty cycle for the pump to run… so the tune will have to be adjusted…not sure on this maybe someone more knowledgeable can interpret..

Thanks for doing that. It gives me even less confidence that it will work as the instructions direct, at least not without calibration changes.

 

[engineermike]

I put an oscilloscope on the PCM signal to the FPDM and confirmed that 75% is the “off” command. This verifies what I said earlier; that if you install the VFD as the instructions say, at a minimum it will require some unorthodox tuning.

 

[Basspro302]

I'm unclear exactly what you're asking

Are you saying the pump draws fuel from the bucket?

 

[Gregory347]

I put an oscilloscope on the PCM signal to the FPDM and confirmed that 75% is the “off” command. This verifies what I said earlier; that if you install the VFD as the instructions say, at a minimum it will require some unorthodox tuning.

I’m going to email Lund next week and ask what they think about running a DW440.

 

[engineermike]

I’m going to email Lund next week and ask what they think about running a DW440.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say Lund will most likely recommend against it. Most mainstream tuners would rather sell you a tune they’ve proven and already sold a few hundred (or thousand) before. It’s way more cost efficient than developing calibration for something novel that very few purchase.

Sponsored