Fuel systems with an OEM style bucket

[bankyf]

If Jackson1320 is correct the twin module GT350 return style fuel system might actually be a solid solution. 4 factory 350/500 pumps should supply enough fuel for whatever power you want while still retaining factory buckets for normal driving. An alternator upgrade may be needed but I don’t think a boost-a-pump would be needed. As far as plumbing goes you should be able to Y-block the two modules together for a single feed line.

Theoretically there are already twin pump setups that could supply 1000+hp on E. Why is it that no tuner will touch that? Is there some other down side to return that I/we are missing, some reason that it won't work at higher HP? I wouldn't be opposed to spending the money for a dual brushless setup if I had some solid reassurance that it was a viable option.

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[Decible]

Theoretically there are already twin pump setups that could supply 1000+hp on E. Why is it that no tuner will touch that? Is there some other down side to return that I/we are missing, some reason that it won't work at higher HP? I wouldn't be opposed to spending the money for a dual brushless setup if I had some solid reassurance that it was a viable option.

I was looking at a brushless system. The plus to a brushless system is they don’t require the voltage that a brushed pump does to produce the same output. Which means the pumps don’t heat the fuel nearly as much. They do require some extra electronics because the ECU can’t control the pumps because the car wasn’t equipped with it from the factory. Still a possibility for me. But I think the 4 pump twin module would be easier and give the same result.

 

[Gregory347]

I like this idea as well but Lund won’t play ball with E85 unless the car has a return style fuel system. What tuners will? Not looking for big power just the benefits of the fuel. 750-800 wheel is all I want.

 

[Angrey]

Pumping from the passenger side is not a surge tank.

putting a pump on the other side is not a surge tank.
A surge tank is a separate tank that holds the big fuel pumps and you use the stock in tank pump to feed it.
I guess technically what you said is a surge tank but the fuel can still slosh over.

http://www.radiumauto.com/MPFST-Multi-Pump-Fuel-Surge-Tank-P1565.aspx

That is a proper surge tank

I know what a surgw tank is. No one said they're the same. However, pumping from the passive side into the active saddle is essentially the same principle as a surge tank. Both use lift pumps to keep the primary pumps surrounded and fed with a proper reservoir of fuel. The surge tank is better in that it completely eliminates fuel migration away from the primaries, but obviously means having the additional expense of a secondary vessel and given the typical limitations of most street cars, involves the tank to be installed somewhere inside the firewall, along with plumbing.

I clearly said you can eliminate the problem with either approach

 

[Angrey]

If Jackson1320 is correct the twin module GT350 return style fuel system might actually be a solid solution. 4 factory 350/500 pumps should supply enough fuel for whatever power you want while still retaining factory buckets for normal driving. An alternator upgrade may be needed but I don’t think a boost-a-pump would be needed. As far as plumbing goes you should be able to Y-block the two modules together for a single feed line.

Still won't eliminate the issues of starvation. Even OEM and modified N/A 350s have the issue of power fade when coming out of long left turns. With high hp, you still run the risk of a dry bucket if the fuel is low because the OEM hanger has only a very small amount of fuel in reserve

 

[Decible]

Still won't eliminate the issues of starvation. Even OEM and modified N/A 350s have the issue of power fade when coming out of long left turns. With high hp, you still run the risk of a dry bucket if the fuel is low because the OEM hanger has only a very small amount of fuel in reserve

I think the OP was trying to address high HP car with stock drivability. Not having to keep the tank half full ect. If I was going to do a dedicated track car then someone mentioned a surge tank. I’d probably go that way. I’m like the OP and am more interested in creating a daily driver with close to 1K to the wheel on pump/e85 with an occasional track day.

 

[Decible]

I like this idea as well but Lund won’t play ball with E85 unless the car has a return style fuel system. What tuners will? Not looking for big power just the benefits of the fuel. 750-800 wheel is all I want.

This system would be plumbed as a return style.

 

[WildHorse]

4 factory 350/500 pumps should supply enough fuel for whatever power you want while still retaining factory buckets for normal driving.

The factory GT fuel pump is good for 600 hp.

 

[Basspro302]

I know what a surgw tank is. No one said they're the same. However, pumping from the passive side into the active saddle is essentially the same principle as a surge tank. Both use lift pumps to keep the primary pumps surrounded and fed with a proper reservoir of fuel. The surge tank is better in that it completely eliminates fuel migration away from the primaries, but obviously means having the additional expense of a secondary vessel and given the typical limitations of most street cars, involves the tank to be installed somewhere inside the firewall, along with plumbing.

I clearly said you can eliminate the problem with either approach

You weren’t clear, don’t get mad lol.
The venturi system works great, Depending on the demand there really isn’t any risk of emptying the bucket. The pump still draws fuel from the bottom of the tank. The advantage is to be able to run low levels and keep the pump cool (not wot)

Obviously don’t run wot at a 1/4 tank or long sweeping turns.

The radium bucket might be the best solution with a proper return line.

 

[Cory S]

https://juggernautpower.com/products/jn2ning-budget-2-0-fuel-system-11-21-gt

Awesome fuel system that isn’t overkill or overpriced. Does 950-1000whp on E with a -8AN feed upgrade.

 

[beefcake]

run a fore system, stage the pumps. golden.... no reason to do anything else, best quality and customer service out there, we have been running their system for about 10 years now.

you can't ask for anything better.

i run 1300 wheel, daily drive the car. and never worried about fuel, i fill up around 1/4 tank

 

[Angrey]

You weren’t clear, don’t get mad lol.
The venturi system works great, Depending on the demand there really isn’t any risk of emptying the bucket. The pump still draws fuel from the bottom of the tank. The advantage is to be able to run low levels and keep the pump cool (not wot)

Obviously don’t run wot at a 1/4 tank or long sweeping turns.

The radium bucket might be the best solution with a proper return line.

The OEM bucket is tiny and the syphon system is barely more than a trickle. For mortal power levels it's probably okay, but for something that could potentially be drinking 700+ liters/hour, it still presents a possibility that under the right conditions, the bucket can be depleted and the pumps starved. (hence why most of the fuel manufacturers and tuners recommend never mashing on less than 1/2 tank).

You have 2 sending units and they average to yield your fuel level. If you're at a 1/4 tank reading on the fuel gauge (1/4 on each side) and you turn hard at all to the left (or take any sort of left leaning curve) the fuel can and does rush up and over to the passenger side. That means you still have 1/4 tank, but most of it's on the non pump side.

The only place you can find ANY data anywhere about the syphon system flow is from Radium and they've measured it to be around 40 l/h. So while the pumps are pushing fuel, they're expending some of their effort to suck from the other side (like a small leak in the pumps by the way) and combined with a tiny fuel bucket, it won't take long at all (couple seconds) to suck the bucket nearly dry if the fuel is mostly on the passenger side.

Again, even at N/A power levels, GT350 guys have well documented (on Trackmustangsonline) the frustrations about power loss coming out of longer left turns. At those power levels, the motor just chokes a bit.

At big boy power levels, with boost and IAT's, etc, it's risking bad outcomes with the motor (again, why most fuel system companies say, don't go low on the fuel level).

The only way to fully resolve that is to have a reservoir surrounding the pumps that can withstand a full WOT send for several seconds and/or actively PUMP the fuel to the reservoir as replacement. That's where a surge tank comes in or some lift pumps instead of a puny siphon system.

 

[Angrey]

The OEM bucket is tiny and the syphon system is barely more than a trickle. For mortal power levels it's probably okay, but for something that could potentially be drinking 700+ liters/hour, it still presents a possibility that under the right conditions, the bucket can be depleted and the pumps starved. (hence why most of the fuel manufacturers and tuners recommend never mashing on less than 1/2 tank).

You have 2 sending units and they average to yield your fuel level. If you're at a 1/4 tank reading on the fuel gauge (1/4 on each side) and you turn hard at all to the left (or take any sort of left leaning curve) the fuel can and does rush up and over to the passenger side. That means you still have 1/4 tank, but most of it's on the non pump side.

The only place you can find ANY data anywhere about the syphon system flow is from Radium and they've measured it to be around 40 l/h. So while the pumps are pushing fuel, they're expending some of their effort to suck from the other side (like a small leak in the pumps by the way) and combined with a tiny fuel bucket, it won't take long at all (couple seconds) to suck the bucket nearly dry if the fuel is mostly on the passenger side.

Again, even at N/A power levels, GT350 guys have well documented (on Trackmustangsonline) the frustrations about power loss coming out of longer left turns. At those power levels, the motor just chokes a bit.

At big boy power levels, with boost and IAT's, etc, it's risking bad outcomes with the motor (again, why most fuel system companies say, don't go low on the fuel level).

The only way to fully resolve that is to have a reservoir surrounding the pumps that can withstand a full WOT send for several seconds and/or actively PUMP the fuel to the reservoir as replacement. That's where a surge tank comes in or some lift pumps instead of a puny siphon system.

By the way, after discussing these types of issues with everyone from Radium to Aeromotive to Deatschwerks to Fuellab, it became clear to me that the IRS and saddle bag fuel tank setup isn't just a problem for mustangs. Speaking with Aeromotive, they were hesitant to put any R/D or investment into in tank solutions because they run into this very same issue with Corvette guys. They're largely a "go external and be done with it" approach (either in line or surge tank).

 

[Basspro302]

The OEM bucket is tiny and the syphon system is barely more than a trickle. For mortal power levels it's probably okay, but for something that could potentially be drinking 700+ liters/hour, it still presents a possibility that under the right conditions, the bucket can be depleted and the pumps starved. (hence why most of the fuel manufacturers and tuners recommend never mashing on less than 1/2 tank).

You have 2 sending units and they average to yield your fuel level. If you're at a 1/4 tank reading on the fuel gauge (1/4 on each side) and you turn hard at all to the left (or take any sort of left leaning curve) the fuel can and does rush up and over to the passenger side. That means you still have 1/4 tank, but most of it's on the non pump side.

The only place you can find ANY data anywhere about the syphon system flow is from Radium and they've measured it to be around 40 l/h. So while the pumps are pushing fuel, they're expending some of their effort to suck from the other side (like a small leak in the pumps by the way) and combined with a tiny fuel bucket, it won't take long at all (couple seconds) to suck the bucket nearly dry if the fuel is mostly on the passenger side.

Again, even at N/A power levels, GT350 guys have well documented (on Trackmustangsonline) the frustrations about power loss coming out of longer left turns. At those power levels, the motor just chokes a bit.

At big boy power levels, with boost and IAT's, etc, it's risking bad outcomes with the motor (again, why most fuel system companies say, don't go low on the fuel level).

The only way to fully resolve that is to have a reservoir surrounding the pumps that can withstand a full WOT send for several seconds and/or actively PUMP the fuel to the reservoir as replacement. That's where a surge tank comes in or some lift pumps instead of a puny siphon system.

Explain to me how the pump draws fuel from the bucket?

 

[engineermike]

Definitely not a popular option, but the DW440 brushless fits in the stock bucket, has the venturi jet integrated, and should support right at 1000 rwhp on E85 if used with a boost-a-pump. No return line needed. It can also be controlled by the factory pressure-control strategy in the ECM.

I personally had a couple of bad experiences with "staged" fuel systems because you don't know the 2nd one is marginal or has failed until you need it and it's too late. With a single pump, there are signs there is a problem and you can usually fix it before smoking an engine.

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