Fossil Fuels are Not the Enemy

[Shadow277]

I for one commend the Chinese for helping keep Amazonian plants alive.
China emits more C02 in 16 days than Australia does in 1 year

Given the scale of the "problem" you can go full greenie-weeny and EV all you damn well please and it won't matter a whit if India, China (and soon Africa) don't care.

That doesn't mean we should join them! Two rights don't make a right.

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[sk47]

Worth the read.
https://theconversation.com/bendabl...ould-dramatically-cut-global-emissions-152544

Hello; I did read thru the link. For what it is worth I am not against strategies which can diminish environmental problems. The link was mainly about concrete, with the potential advantage that some techniques might reduce the amount of actual cement needed. Such can be fine if the final product proves serviceable.
The notion of pushing CO2 into concrete as a form of solid is of interest and sort of ironic. I would be interested in how much energy it might take to turn CO2 gas into a solid form. The ironic part is cement is made from limestone. Limestone is made from the shells of trillions of sea creatures which secrete carbonate shells. A natural process of pulling CO2 from the atmosphere.

 

[sk47]

I guess it’s a good thing that China has committed to the Paris agreement then.
Can you explain how a continent (Africa) would go about doing it? Wouldn’t that be the responsibility of the nations Individually?
I‘m particularly fond of how you skipped the part where the US and China combined, account for roughly 40% of global CO2 emissions, despite only accounting for roughly 25% of global population.
Whilst we’re doing facts, with a population that’s 55 times larger, China is actually doing a much better job on CO2 emissions than Australia. In fact, China managed to hit their 2020 CO2 target nearly 3 years early.
The Australian government has a LOT of work to do.

Hello; I cannot grab partial quotes any more so have to use the reply button. I may not be current about China. Last I knew the agreements world organizations gave China a sort of free pass on short term pollution levels because they promised to do better in a decade or so. So they may be in effect meeting more lax standards that other countries are being held to. At least such was my understanding in the past. Are you saying China has more stringent environmental regulations than, say the USA, and that they are doing a better job of meeting those regulations than the USA? Such information would be good to know and I would have to stand corrected in my thinking. Last understanding I had was the Chinese have been putting new coal fired power plants online at at least monthly rates for the last few years. I was thinking China is among the worst air polluters, if not the worst currently. maybe my information is out of date.

The other side of your argument is of interest. Before you wrote of how good China is doing with their emissions, you lumped them with the USA as emitting 40% CO2 emissions and having only 25% of the world population. It would seem the two points ought to be the opposite of each other

 

[shogun32]

That doesn't mean we should join them! Two rights don't make a right.

true. but it also makes no sense to hamstring/destroy your own economy for an unattainable goal while your enemy laughs his ass off at your own limitless stupidity.

Last I knew the agreements world organizations gave China a sort of free pass on short term pollution levels because they promised to do better in a decade or so.

Yup they did. It was a farce and insult to every other country (esp. actual still-developing nations) on the planet. The Chinese have NEVER lived up to so-called international agreements on pretty much anything. You have to be pathologically STUPID to think they give a rat's ass about ecology within their own borders let alone the globe. They can't believe their luck that all these "western" countries are willing to murder their own populace to virtue signal and hand mastery of the world economy to them on a platter.

I cannot grab partial quotes any more

learn how to use the website, man. You highlight some text and you click 'reply' or 'quote'. If latter you go down to the box at the bottom and insert the quoted bits of text by clicking the nifty blue button that says "insert quotes".

 

[Shadow277]

true. but it also makes no sense to hamstring/destroy your own economy for an unattainable goal while your enemy laughs his ass off at your own limitless stupidity.


Yup they did. It was a farce and insult to every other country (esp. actual still-developing nations) on the planet. The Chinese have NEVER lived up to so-called international agreements on pretty much anything. You have to be pathologically STUPID to think they give a rat's ass about ecology within their own borders let alone the globe. They can't believe their luck that all these "western" countries are willing to murder their own populace to virtue signal and hand mastery of the world economy to them on a platter.

learn how to use the website, man. You highlight some text and you click 'reply' or 'quote'. If latter you go down to the box at the bottom and insert the quoted bits of text by clicking the nifty blue button that says "insert quotes".

We can do this. AOC said we have the resources available. It'd strengthen our economy. I believe her since she has an economics degree.

 

[shogun32]

We can do this. AOC said we have the resources available. It'd strengthen our economy. I believe her since she has an economics degree.

it's a short hop from Hands Across America to Rails Across the 7 Seas. All we need is to believe.

 

[sk47]

learn how to use the website, man. You highlight some text and you click 'reply' or 'quote'. If latter you go down to the box at the bottom and insert the quoted bits of text by clicking the nifty blue button that says "insert quotes".

Hello; I was able to use the feature for a while, but a few weeks ago it stopped working for me. I have some old quotes selected but when I try to insert quotes I get an oops error message. I can use the reply button OK, but often want to pick out just a segment of a post.
For example I used reply to quote your entire post just now and deleted the parts I did not intend to reply to.
I joined in a thread where someone else is having the same issue a while back, but so far no response from whoever runs this site.

 

[shogun32]

I joined in a thread where someone else is having the same issue a while back, but so far no response from whoever runs this site.

reset your browser cache will probably do it. Or log out/in.

 

[sk47]

We can do this. AOC said we have the resources available. It'd strengthen our economy. I believe her since she has an economics degree.

Hello; Not sure if this is some sort of a joke or if you are serious.

 

[sk47]

reset your browser cache will probably do it. Or log out/in.

Hello; I do log out every day already. I do not understand what a browser cache is.

 

[Shadow277]

it's a short hop from Hands Across America to Rails Across the 7 Seas. All we need is to believe.

Just put floaties on the trains.

 

[Shadow277]

Hello; Not sure if this is some sort of a joke or if you are serious.

It's whatever you want it to be.

 

[Burkey]

The other side of your argument is of interest. Before you wrote of how good China is doing with their emissions, you lumped them with the USA as emitting 40% CO2 emissions and having only 25% of the world population. It would seem the two points ought to be the opposite of each other

It’s complex. Given that China holds roughly 4 times the population of the US, which part of the graph below suggests that they are ”worse” than the US?
EDIT: added second chart for absolute clarity.

 

[sk47]

It’s complex. Given that China holds roughly 4 times the population of the US, which part of the graph below suggests that they are ”worse” than the US?
EDIT: added second chart for absolute clarity.

Hello; I guess it depends on how a person wishes to work the statistics. I suppose some charts could be made using some other criteria which might paint the details more in favor of whichever agenda a person wants to support.
Even with the charts you provide the bottom line is China is twice as big as the USA in terms of total CO2 emissions. Are not the total emissions the main thing?

I do get the point you are trying to make. That an average USA citizen seems responsible for more CO2 than an average Chinese citizen. Here is where the second chart falls apart. On the second chart each Australian citizen is nearly as responsible for CO2 emissions as an USA citizen. Not much difference. However in the first chart Australia does not even make the list. So making Australia and the USA the bad guys per capita does not jibe with the first chart.

Look at the first chart again. China emits about twice as much total CO2 as the USA in the time frame given. Twice as much! Get it. CO2 knows no national boundries. In most ways it is the total emissions which are the key to the CO2 agenda. I could write a story pointing out how USA is doing twice as good as China in terms of emissions using that chart.

Here is another kicker as far as I am concerned. China now is continuing to build and to use coal fired power plants. New ones coming online each month is my understanding. I also do not think these new coal powered plants are being built to be as clean as is possible. Also it has been my understanding the Chinese will continue to use these coal plants right along with any "green infrastructure" that may also be built. The bottom line is as I understand it that China has now surpassed USA in many areas of total pollutant emissions.

I will close my remarks by saying again that, at least to me, CO2 is not the more important environmental issue the world faces. If I am allowed to speculate then the much larger population of countries such as China and India are to be the base of serious problems. It is my guess those people want a more comfortable western lifestyle and are striving to have it.
The population numbers work out well enough for an agenda in a per-capita manner in the second chart, but I figure this is because so many have not yet reached the level of consumerism they are now actively seeking.

 

[sk47]

Hello; Another thought occurred to me. From the chart provided by Burkley, the average USA citizen is responsible about 16.5 metric tones of CO2 while the average Chinese citizen is responsible for 7.5 metric tones. Not clear the time frame, but the time is the same for both.

So one way to look at it is someone like me causes a bit over twice as much CO2 as a similar citizen of China. I guess a point of such a chart comparison is to make me an example of an environmental bad guy. At least this is how I have been inclined to take the posting of that chart.

So a question arises. I do get that the average American can cut back some on the extras and still not live a bad lifestyle. I do not think I would want to live a lifestyle where over half of my comforts are gone. China must have a lot of folks who live a hard scrabble life. I do not wish to live a hard scrabble life.

I also figure those living a hard scrabble life in China or anywhere else want to have a better life. My guess is they will take a better lifestyle if that can get it and many, if not most, are trying to get a better life. I do not fault them for wanting such a thing.
I do not fault myself for wanting to keep much of the lifestyle I am accustom to having. In fact I suspect I am not quite a typical American when it comes to energy consumption, but this is a little beside the point. We Americans have some leeway in what we can give up if we have to. I guess I am supposed to be ashamed of living where I do. I am not by the way.

So here is my question. Is it reasonable to think those in China will continue at their current average lifestyle? ( Note- I get that this average business is misleading. Just as in the USA some live much better than others in China.) I do not think such is the way of things. I think those in China will strive to be more like us with a western lifestyle and will a lot more consumers. After all China is already emitting more CO2 that the USA currently.

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