Formula 1 talk.

sk47

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It is hard to evaluate what is in a driver's mind in moments like these. Even though these guys are the best in the world, they are still human. All of this happens literally in milliseconds. We and the stewards then have the benefit of slow motion and camera angles. And then we all have to try to determine what was going on and who is to blame. It is a daunting task and really next to impossible.

All that I ask just like in every sport is that the calls are equal all the time. However I think that is next to impossible as well. If it is always called racing incidents with no penalty then it seems unfair to the one that might get the worst of the accident (DNF, pit to repair, etc) and certain drivers would most likely be embolden to say F it especially if they have nothing to lose.

So we have what we have and come on forums to complain and discuss. Nothing will change. 😂
Hello; Sorry. I do not buy into the notion blame cannot be parsed out. All the video and slow motion make such possible.
I do buy into the notion calls be equal all the time. Too many thumbs on the scale are the issue to me.
I get that with regard to the particular incident between Max and Lewis under discussion, both drivers were going for the same space on the track. The defining factor being only Lewis had track space in which to move over. Max was at the edge of track limits and during the incident was forced further off the track by contact from the MB.
Again, I point out that during that same race there were several times when two cars were racing side by side into and thru the curves. Each driver giving the other space as they approached the changing apexes of the curves.
Such did not happen during the Max-Lewis crash. In a real sense both drivers were pushing things too far. However only Lewis had actual track space available on which to move over to his left. Lewis literally drove into the side of Max's car when he had room to do side by side racing. Both are aggressive drivers. Both make aggressive moves. Neither was without blame in the incident, yet only one was punished. Thing is those of us who do not have a blind spot for Lewis have seen too many such toss up incidences go in Lewis's favor. This being only the latest.

It may be just as marriage turns a perfectly wonderful girlfriend/boyfriend into a husband or a wife, that winning a lot turns a driver into a selfish prima donna it's all about me sort.
I am not a Max fan boy. I was pleased to see some car other than the MB be competitive, but Max has tarnished his own image. First with his radio talk and as time went on with track antics culminating with disobeying team orders recently. I still call for him to be benched for the last race. The team is the important entity, not the driver.

 

Timeless

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Hello; Sorry. I do not buy into the notion blame cannot be parsed out. All the video and slow motion make such possible.
I do buy into the notion calls be equal all the time. Too many thumbs on the scale are the issue to me.
I get that with regard to the particular incident between Max and Lewis under discussion, both drivers were going for the same space on the track. The defining factor being only Lewis had track space in which to move over. Max was at the edge of track limits and during the incident was forced further off the track by contact from the MB.
Again, I point out that during that same race there were several times when two cars were racing side by side into and thru the curves. Each driver giving the other space as they approached the changing apexes of the curves.
Such did not happen during the Max-Lewis crash. In a real sense both drivers were pushing things too far. However only Lewis had actual track space available on which to move over to his left. Lewis literally drove into the side of Max's car when he had room to do side by side racing. Both are aggressive drivers. Both make aggressive moves. Neither was without blame in the incident, yet only one was punished. Thing is those of us who do not have a blind spot for Lewis have seen too many such toss up incidences go in Lewis's favor. This being only the latest.

It may be just as marriage turns a perfectly wonderful girlfriend/boyfriend into a husband or a wife, that winning a lot turns a driver into a selfish prima donna it's all about me sort.
I am not a Max fan boy. I was pleased to see some car other than the MB be competitive, but Max has tarnished his own image. First with his radio talk and as time went on with track antics culminating with disobeying team orders recently. I still call for him to be benched for the last race. The team is the important entity, not the driver.
Again, no matter what you use to view the incident you will never be able to read the driver's mind to know if they were surprised to find another drive next to them or if they basically said F this guy I'm not moving.

Another thing to remember is physics. These guys over/understeer in the corners and the results are out of the control of the driver once it happens. They may try to give room but their car slides more than they expect or can correct.

What is crystal clear in the latest incident is the stewards felt Max was the once that should have backed off and braked versus continuing to try to pass dangerously in the corner.

Now whether they apply this going forward in future incidents we can only wait and see.
 

Bikeman315

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What is crystal clear in the latest incident is the stewards felt Max was the once that should have backed off and braked versus continuing to try to pass dangerously in the corner.
There is only one thing that Max could have done and that was to steer right, if he could. Unfortunately he had already committed to a do or die strategy and that’s why the stewards found him at fault.

Now whether they apply this going forward in future incidents we can only wait and see.
Well we will not have to wait too long. I fully expect to see Abu Dhabi to be a total cluster between Red Bull and Mercedes. My prediction is that they all take each other out, Ferrari screws up their strategy once again an Seb wins his final F1 race. Remember you heard it here first!! :crackup: :cwl:
 

sk47

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Again, no matter what you use to view the incident you will never be able to read the driver's mind to know if they were surprised to find another drive next to them or if they basically said F this guy I'm not moving.

Another thing to remember is physics. These guys over/understeer in the corners and the results are out of the control of the driver once it happens. They may try to give room but their car slides more than they expect or can correct.

What is crystal clear in the latest incident is the stewards felt Max was the once that should have backed off and braked versus continuing to try to pass dangerously in the corner.

Now whether they apply this going forward in future incidents we can only wait and see.
Hello; Only comment on one item for now. The physics part of understeer/ oversteer. When going into a tight right-hand curve you can understeer (push) or indeed oversteer (loose).
Push is when the steering wheel/tires are turned but the front of the car does not turn in to match the steering input and plows on some. You move toward the outside of the curve. This is the way most all street cars are set up to turn.
Oversteer or loose is when you turn the steering and the back end tries to come around. Oversteer is a harder thing to control. During oversteer you have to turn into the slide to get control and in doing so move to the outside of the turn

It is my understanding that in either case the car winds up moving to the outer radius of the curve.

In the incident Lewis did not move to the outside of the curve. He drove into the smaller apex of the curve. He had plenty of traction to drive to the inside apex of the curve. He had control in other words. I cannot read his mind but can understand what was done.
 

Timeless

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There is only one thing that Max could have done and that was to steer right, if he could. Unfortunately he had already committed to a do or die strategy and that’s why the stewards found him at fault.


Well we will not have to wait too long. I fully expect to see Abu Dhabi to be a total cluster between Red Bull and Mercedes. My prediction is that they all take each other out, Ferrari screws up their strategy once again an Seb wins his final F1 race. Remember you heard it here first!! :crackup: :cwl:
The brakes on these F1 cars are unreal...I think he also had that option.

Hello; Only comment on one item for now. The physics part of understeer/ oversteer. When going into a tight right-hand curve you can understeer (push) or indeed oversteer (loose).
Push is when the steering wheel/tires are turned but the front of the car does not turn in to match the steering input and plows on some. You move toward the outside of the curve. This is the way most all street cars are set up to turn.
Oversteer or loose is when you turn the steering and the back end tries to come around. Oversteer is a harder thing to control. During oversteer you have to turn into the slide to get control and in doing so move to the outside of the turn

It is my understanding that in either case the car winds up moving to the outer radius of the curve.

In the incident Lewis did not move to the outside of the curve. He drove into the smaller apex of the curve. He had plenty of traction to drive to the inside apex of the curve. He had control in other words. I cannot read his mind but can understand what was done.
I've done my fair share of HPDE so I am well versed in these terms.

What I and you have not done is reach the level these guys are at with the cars that they have...so to speak with any confidence to the drivers or cars abilities is just silly.
 


sk47

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The brakes on these F1 cars are unreal...I think he also had that option.



I've done my fair share of HPDE so I am well versed in these terms.

What I and you have not done is reach the level these guys are at with the cars that they have...so to speak with any confidence to the drivers or cars abilities is just silly.
Hello; Silly to expect a seven- and two-time F1 champions to have a grasp of what their cars driving characteristics are after nearly a full season of racing them?
Silly that during that same race many drivers raced side by side thru those very curves. including at least one of the drivers in question?

We hear all the time that the drivers are laced tightly into these cars and in a sense become one with the car. That during a race these two drivers make precise moves around a track over and over again. Yet somehow, I should not be saying Lewis could have moved over and left some racing room. Leaving racing room is supposed to be the way it is done.

Don't worry. I get it. The call went Lewis's way and that is good enough.
 

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Hello; Silly to expect a seven- and two-time F1 champions to have a grasp of what their cars driving characteristics are after nearly a full season of racing them?
Silly that during that same race many drivers raced side by side thru those very curves. including at least one of the drivers in question?

We hear all the time that the drivers are laced tightly into these cars and in a sense become one with the car. That during a race these two drivers make precise moves around a track over and over again. Yet somehow, I should not be saying Lewis could have moved over and left some racing room. Leaving racing room is supposed to be the way it is done.

Don't worry. I get it. The call went Lewis's way and that is good enough.
What you don't get is you or I cannot comprehend what these guys know or do not know much less what these cars can do or not do.

All you can be is forum poster with opinions like everyone else.
 

sk47

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What you don't get is you or I cannot comprehend what these guys know or do not know much less what these cars can do or not do.

All you can be is forum poster with opinions like everyone else.
Hello; In terms of a seat of the pants feel for how the cars drive this is correct. I cannot know what the G forces feel like under braking nor during cornering. Same for their ability to understand track dynamics. Some drivers have a good mechanical background and knowledge of applied physics. I personally for a distance cannot know what their level actually is. I do not necessarily have to understand at the level of a driver to understand basic dynamics of a race car.

However, we are not discussing this is a vacuum of information. Lots can be known from being an observer and in your case having done some high-performance driving. We can have knowledge based on what we see happening during races, practices and qualifying.
I do know from observation these cars and drivers can race side by side thru the curves at speed. I do know from personal experience about being tight or loose in a curve. (understeer or oversteer) That personal experience is backed up in other ways. In the specific incident with Max on the close inside (apex) of the curve and Lewis further out in the curve. In that situation understeer or oversteer could have moved Max further out from the apex and into lewis. Or Lewis could have moved further over away from the apex with Understeer or oversteer. Neither of those things happened.
What happened is Lewis had plenty of traction to turn into the curve and into Max. Striking Max's car and forcing him onto the apron of the track. No understeer nor oversteer involved. Lewis went for a racing line close to the apex of the curve as max was already there. I get the technicality that Max was not forward enough to some imaginary point so the stewards could award him a penalty. I figure Lewis had to be aware enough to realize Max was still racing beside him. They had been at it for a bit already for a time.
But feel free to keep to your interpretation that Lewis, a seven-time champion, was somehow not able to be aware of what was happening or lost control of his own car. Lewis went for the inside of the curve. Maybe he foolishly hoped Max would be forced to back off, but both were racing for position. The norm is supposed be for each driver to allow room for the other guy. I see it as Max had no track space to give. Lewis had lots track space to give but did not.
 

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Hello; In terms of a seat of the pants feel for how the cars drive this is correct. I cannot know what the G forces feel like under braking nor during cornering. Same for their ability to understand track dynamics. Some drivers have a good mechanical background and knowledge of applied physics. I personally for a distance cannot know what their level actually is. I do not necessarily have to understand at the level of a driver to understand basic dynamics of a race car.

However, we are not discussing this is a vacuum of information. Lots can be known from being an observer and in your case having done some high-performance driving. We can have knowledge based on what we see happening during races, practices and qualifying.
I do know from observation these cars and drivers can race side by side thru the curves at speed. I do know from personal experience about being tight or loose in a curve. (understeer or oversteer) That personal experience is backed up in other ways. In the specific incident with Max on the close inside (apex) of the curve and Lewis further out in the curve. In that situation understeer or oversteer could have moved Max further out from the apex and into lewis. Or Lewis could have moved further over away from the apex with Understeer or oversteer. Neither of those things happened.
What happened is Lewis had plenty of traction to turn into the curve and into Max. Striking Max's car and forcing him onto the apron of the track. No understeer nor oversteer involved. Lewis went for a racing line close to the apex of the curve as max was already there. I get the technicality that Max was not forward enough to some imaginary point so the stewards could award him a penalty. I figure Lewis had to be aware enough to realize Max was still racing beside him. They had been at it for a bit already for a time.
But feel free to keep to your interpretation that Lewis, a seven-time champion, was somehow not able to be aware of what was happening or lost control of his own car. Lewis went for the inside of the curve. Maybe he foolishly hoped Max would be forced to back off, but both were racing for position. The norm is supposed be for each driver to allow room for the other guy. I see it as Max had no track space to give. Lewis had lots track space to give but did not.
So basically you typed a wall of text to say what we have already said. Max could have stayed away from darting into the corner and Lewis could have given him more space by also not going into the corner with as much speed. And the stewards obviously felt in this instance it was Max that should have backed off.


What a crock of shit. But honestly who would have expected any less.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-statement-sao-paulo-team-orders/
Basically solidifying that Max is in charge.
 

sk47

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So basically you typed a wall of text to say what we have already said. Max could have stayed away from darting into the corner and Lewis could have given him more space by also not going into the corner with as much speed. And the stewards obviously felt in this instance it was Max that should have backed off.
Hello; Not the points I have been trying to make. Interesting interpretation though. Speed or no Lewis was under control of his car and did not allow room. I also completely understand about the stewards. Seen it enough times, nothing new there.
 

sk47

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What a crock of shit. But honestly who would have expected any less.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-statement-sao-paulo-team-orders/
Hello; The team will continue to have problems by catering to these prima donna types. Been a pattern among the top teams for decades. Afraid to discipline a driver for fear of losing a point in the now only to have more ongoing problems. Seem to recall rival teammates crashing with each other and taking both cars out of races over the decades.
 

sk47

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Hello; Looks like Max did screw his team mate out of the 2nd place in the drivers' championship last week. Not so sure why second place is important. 2nd is better than 3rd. 3rd is better than 4th and so on. But as someone said second is just the first loser.

I did not keep watching after the checkered flag to see how the MFG championship turned out. I guess RB is still 1st.
 

 
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