Ford Inspector for Warranty Repair-Update:Warranty Denied Claim Due to Off Road Racing

[K4fxd]

Fire not covered?

I see they added "track use" to the wording.

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[v guy]

Anybody who has done NASA level 1,2,3,4 .............level 1 .........an instructor rides with you before sign off to level 2, etc..no license...you drive to your limit.
Yep that's me.

SCDA..Instructors for novice level, until sign off to Intermediate...always prodding you to go faster, deeper.
Cars get beat.

SCCA track nites...run what you brung......no instructor.

RISK............ at Pitt NASA recently in level 1, a kid spun his CMC Mustang badly.........At W Glen SCDA, I listened to an instructor who slammed his Porsche at Palmer, and another instructor went straight off at the heel and totaled his Z1 Camaro.
At Pocono SCDA, plenty of mustangs..even GT500's that overheated like a Roush auto trans did.

Cars are RACED.........to your level and ability....RED MIST hits...........Guy who posts here, runs his FG Gray M1........fast guy!!

Mustangs are durable, yes.......aluminator engined cars are a blast to hear.

2:10 at the Glen is fast.............2:25 more sedate. Have fun if you can afford it.


.

 

[kz]

Eveybody posts their lap times but then "HPDE is not racing". Yeah, sure.
It is not wheel to wheel racing but everyone's pushing it.

 

[K4fxd]

"HPDE is not racing".

It is not. Racing is very different than tracking.

 

[v guy]

I have not been able to tell the difference..............look at most SCCA T-1 races.............single file, big gaps at end.

Spec Miata and Spec racer Ford...............that is close racing.

HPDE is no different than SCCA/NASA practice/qualifying sessions.........hardship practice is like HPDE........

Camraderie at HPDE is just like SCCA regionals....

Ya gotta go the HPDE events to judge.
https://scda1.com/
https://www.scca.com/events?categories=track-night-events

https://drivenasa.com/road-racing/

Costs money to go...............unlike car shows and waxing competitions.

 

[v guy]

The intercom system used at SCDA and NASA between driver and Instructor is a great thing.

Every instructor has to undergo check rides with other instructors on a regular basis to stay sharp, and they all say that it is great help............everyone needs an instructor session, especially novices/intermediates.

$500 SCDA events...

Many people drag less expensive cars to the events to drive fast in. Miatas, BMW #?sedans, toyota sedans, VW sedans, Nissan sedans............Mustangs and real NASCAR level race cars are kings........except for well driven Porches.
One guy at a NASATT event had a 69 Mustang Fastback, with 410 pro build windsor engine.

Great stuff. Surpassing regular SCCA events for participants by far nowadays.

Dirt track events with 40 cars on half mile dirt track...........impossible not to race wheel to wheel.

 

[luc]

It is not. Racing is very different than tracking.

Not for the car. At least in the open/advanced group
My old 69 race mustang. 1.40 at Laguna years ago

 

[passwords]

Why is it that the guys who keep posting that HPDE is “racing” really only want to post about how much they have “raced” in the past? We get it, you’ve spent time on track. Congratulations. HPDE is still not racing.

 

[luc]

Why is it that the guys who keep posting that HPDE is “racing” really only want to post about how much they have “raced” in the past? We get it, you’ve spent time on track. Congratulations. HPDE is still not racing.

Why are the people that have never raced and therefore have no personal experience can affirm that it is not the same for the car between w2w and advanced open track ?
Obviously people that have/are doing both should be the ones that know the facts
Do you really think that redlining the car in second gear out of T11 at Laguna is different for the car depending if you are racing or simply open tracking ?

 

[Inthehighdesert]

I’ve done both. Cars and bikes. There is a very big difference between a race and a track day. Regardless of ones mindset. To try and attempt to say there isn’t a difference is disingenuous at best. When’s the last time you saw someone wave someone by in a race.

Why are the people that have never raced and therefore have no personal experience can affirm that it is not the same for the car between w2w and advanced open track ?
Obviously people are have/are doing both should be the ones that know the facts
Do you really think that redlining the car in second gear out of T11 at Laguna is different for the car depending if you are racing or simply open tracking ?

 

[luc]

I’ve done both. Cars and bikes. There is a very big difference between a race and a track day. Regardless of ones mindset. To try and attempt to say there isn’t a difference is disingenuous at best. When’s the last time you saw someone wave someone by in a race.

You’re completely missing the point, of course there is a huge difference for the driver but almost none for the car
There are plenty of waves in racing. Since you’re only supposed to race competitors in the same class that you are in and that it is common to have 5 or more classes in a race, it is common courtesy, and expected, to wave a faster car that is not in your class

 

[mikedahammer]

You’re completely missing the point, of course there is a huge difference for the driver but almost none for the car
There are plenty of waves in racing. Since you’re only supposed to race competitors in the same class that you are in and that it is common to have 5 or more classes in a race, it is common courtesy, and expected, to wave a faster car that is not in your class

You are also missing the point. Not everyone or every car that participates in HPDE is exerting the same forces as racing. To say that is asinine. I do agree that some drivers are more skilled than others and put the car through stressors that could mirror racing. However, the manufacturer says the car can handle the stresses for track use and as long as the car isn't abused beyond the RPM range and is properly serviced then it should be covered. In my particular case the manual said racing is for competition or time and we call can agree that there is no formal competition or time in HPDE. Simple as that. Were it goes sideways is the ESP didn't define racing and left it open for interpretation.

I know many people who purchased the GT350 for track use. Same reason I purchased the ZL1 1LE. I want a track capable car that was manufactured to to withstand track use. Racing is so broad that it could be as simple as in my case racing to the grocery store or racing home from work to have a beer. See how ridiculous that is?

The real issue is just about the verbiage. Everyone who has a brain also has an opinion about what racing is or what it isn't. This opinion is going to be different based on their personal experiences and driving history. To standardize the definition would make it simple. I believe that when a manufacturer adversities and promotes track use as acceptable and then denies coverage just because you used it in the manner advertised is defrauding the consumer.

I have participated in a ton of track days. Taking the car to the track should not void the powertrain warranty unless you do something stupid (i.e. something the car manufacturer says the car cannot handle or the car was not properly maintained or pushed beyond what is acceptable).

I know from experience in the GT350 when the motor blew I had zero warning signs and zero check engine lights. All the issues I had with the GT350 I never had one check engine light. When the VCT solenoid was bad no CEL. When the dipstick kept blowing out of the motor - no CEL. When the motor was cutting power - no CEL. I can tell you that from my experience in the Zl1 1LE GM has all kinds of safe guards based on oil pressure, oil temperatures, ambient temperatures that the car is safeguarded to ensure safety when it is being used at the higher end of its performance capacity. Does that make it bulletproof? No, but I never noticed any of those safeguards with the GT350. Did I love letting the Voodoo sing to 8250 - hell yeah. Did I ever over rev it or abuse the motor - absolutely not. Same with the trans. If the car can't handle the track or that rpm range then don't advertise it as such. Ford doesn't care and they know the issues. I am not a guy that was looking for a free track car, but I also don't like to feel like I have been duped either.

It is an interesting topic but unfortunatley Ford ESP's stance is that it doesn't support track use. Is that fair and clearly in the contract? No. That is where the problem lies.

 

[passwords]

Do you really think that redlining the car in second gear out of T11 at Laguna is different for the car depending if you are racing or simply open tracking ?

And therein lies the problem with your table pounding on this topic, you’re entirely missing the point of the original post because you (and a few others) want to shout about how much racing you’ve done.

This is not a question about how much or how little stress is placed on the car. It’s about a definition, defined by FORD, and limited to the GT350 through 2019. (Ford started to reign in its stance on this topic starting with the 2020 GT350s)

To catch you up to the actual topic at hand: when Ford started marketing the GT350, they marketed it as the most track capable factory Mustang to date. With that marketing, Ford encouraged potential GT350 buyers to take the car to the track, and they were clear that failures occurring from track use were covered by the factory warranty, because the GT350 was engineered as a track capable car you could buy off the showroom floor and take to the track without any modifications. It was Ford that differentiated between HPDE track use and “racing,” specific to the GT350, not the owner community. And to Ford’s credit, most GT350 owners who tracked their cars were treated well when it came to warranty claims. Ford kept its word in that respect.

The evolution of this issue is the move from the factory warranty to the Ford extended warranty, technically an extended service contract. That topic has been beaten to death in the 700 posts related to this thread, but the question is (1) because the ESP contract uses the same language as the factory warranty, and (2) because the ESP is housed with a company entirely owned by Ford, do GT350 owners who bought the Ford ESP and continue to track their cars have the same coverage for failures related to, or potentially caused by, track use.

The answer here is simple: if the failure was caused by racing, as differentiated from HPDE BY FORD, then no it would not be covered. Any GT350 owner that bought an extended warranty (ESP) marketed as “backed by Ford” or as “an extension of your factory warranty” would have a reasonable expectation that coverage of track use failures would be covered by the ESP. Period.

Your definition of racing is irrelevant. The actual stresses placed on the car is irrelevant. Ford’s definition of racing, as it relates to the GT350, and as differentiated from HPDE, and how that definition and differentiation transfers to the ESP, is what’s relevant.

 

[svttim]

And therein lies the problem with your table pounding on this topic, you’re entirely missing the point of the original post because you (and a few others) want to shout about how much racing you’ve done.

This is not a question about how much or how little stress is placed on the car. It’s about a definition, defined by FORD, and limited to the GT350 through 2019. (Ford started to reign in its stance on this topic starting with the 2020 GT350s)

To catch you up to the actual topic at hand: when Ford started marketing the GT350, they marketed it as the most track capable factory Mustang to date. With that marketing, Ford encouraged potential GT350 buyers to take the car to the track, and they were clear that failures occurring from track use were covered by the factory warranty, because the GT350 was engineered as a track capable car you could buy off the showroom floor and take to the track without any modifications. It was Ford that differentiated between HPDE track use and “racing,” specific to the GT350, not the owner community. And to Ford’s credit, most GT350 owners who tracked their cars were treated well when it came to warranty claims. Ford kept its word in that respect.

The evolution of this issue is the move from the factory warranty to the Ford extended warranty, technically an extended service contract. That topic has been beaten to death in the 700 posts related to this thread, but the question is (1) because the ESP contract uses the same language as the factory warranty, and (2) because the ESP is housed with a company entirely owned by Ford, do GT350 owners who bought the Ford ESP and continue to track their cars have the same coverage for failures related to, or potentially caused by, track use.

The answer here is simple: if the failure was caused by racing, as differentiated from HPDE BY FORD, then no it would not be covered. Any GT350 owner that bought an extended warranty (ESP) marketed as “backed by Ford” or as “an extension of your factory warranty” would have a reasonable expectation that coverage of track use failures would be covered by the ESP. Period.

Your definition of racing is irrelevant. The actual stresses placed on the car is irrelevant. Ford’s definition of racing, as it relates to the GT350, and as differentiated from HPDE, and how that definition and differentiation transfers to the ESP, is what’s relevant.

Exactly. Ford defined the term for us, They covered it. HPDE is very different from racing. I drive my car harder on the street then some guys drive an HPDE. Is that racing.

 

[luc]

And therein lies the problem with your table pounding on this topic, you’re entirely missing the point of the original post because you (and a few others) want to shout about how much racing you’ve done.

This is not a question about how much or how little stress is placed on the car. It’s about a definition, defined by FORD, and limited to the GT350 through 2019. (Ford started to reign in its stance on this topic starting with the 2020 GT350s)

To catch you up to the actual topic at hand: when Ford started marketing the GT350, they marketed it as the most track capable factory Mustang to date. With that marketing, Ford encouraged potential GT350 buyers to take the car to the track, and they were clear that failures occurring from track use were covered by the factory warranty, because the GT350 was engineered as a track capable car you could buy off the showroom floor and take to the track without any modifications. It was Ford that differentiated between HPDE track use and “racing,” specific to the GT350, not the owner community. And to Ford’s credit, most GT350 owners who tracked their cars were treated well when it came to warranty claims. Ford kept its word in that respect.

The evolution of this issue is the move from the factory warranty to the Ford extended warranty, technically an extended service contract. That topic has been beaten to death in the 700 posts related to this thread, but the question is (1) because the ESP contract uses the same language as the factory warranty, and (2) because the ESP is housed with a company entirely owned by Ford, do GT350 owners who bought the Ford ESP and continue to track their cars have the same coverage for failures related to, or potentially caused by, track use.

The answer here is simple: if the failure was caused by racing, as differentiated from HPDE BY FORD, then no it would not be covered. Any GT350 owner that bought an extended warranty (ESP) marketed as “backed by Ford” or as “an extension of your factory warranty” would have a reasonable expectation that coverage of track use failures would be covered by the ESP. Period.

Your definition of racing is irrelevant. The actual stresses placed on the car is irrelevant. Ford’s definition of racing, as it relates to the GT350, and as differentiated from HPDE, and how that definition and differentiation transfers to the ESP, is what’s relevant.

You’re right, at the end of the day my definition of racing, as well than your are irrelevant, the only one that matters was/is the arbitrator definition.

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