Ford buy back attempt 2018 Mustang GT “typewriter tick/rattle.”

[goldengooner]

The one I find puzzling is how the engine often ticks after an oil change it seems. I haven't done an oil change yet so I haven't crossed that Rubicon. And why does Ceratec seem to stop or minimize the tick? Very strange to me. I've often wondered if the rattle could be the DI ramping up from the previous PFI state as the engine goes under more load. The other thing is I've revved the car in the driveway through the 2500 RPM or so rattle range and I don't hear it. So there needs to be some load for it to manifest on my car which is stranger yet......... I've stopped obsessing over it as all it was doing was stealing the enjoyment from me that I bought the car to experience...... so f&ck it

In the UK, a lot of people think it's to do with the wrong oil being put in after a service. But it's been spoken about for a long time, even independent garages who know the car inside out, are not sure. but No Way on the planet should it be called Normal. I have a California Special built to order and imported vial Canada then shipped to me.

Sponsored

 

[Condor1970]

In the UK, a lot of people think it's to do with the wrong oil being put in after a service. But it's been spoken about for a long time, even independent garages who know the car inside out, are not sure. but No Way on the planet should it be called Normal. I have a California Special built to order and imported vial Canada then shipped to me.

The question of "normal" can be subjective in this case. And you're talking a conservative who does not like being "subjective". The fact that the exact same random ticking sound occurs in Duramax, Powerstroke, and even Cummins diesels, is a bit of a light bulb when it comes to trying to figure out what the typewriter tick is. As the compression ratio of these engines increases, it seems that complaints of this ticking sound gets to be more common. All the Mustangs prior to 2018 had a few cases here and there of ticking complaints. However, as soon as the new 2018 came out with the higher compression ratio of 12:1 that is approaching diesel levels, and the Di system to boot...A whole host of new noises presented itself.
The TSB issued by Chevrolet for the same noise found in the Duramax, explains it as "oil cavitation/flashing" due to high compression forces being applied to the main bearings during combustion/rotation of the crank shaft. Their instructions are NOT to attempt repairing the engine due to these noises, as it is a normal noise that occurs due to the design.

GT Pony should be interjecting anytime now. LOL

 

[GT Pony]

^^^ LoL, yeah I still don't really buy into oil cavitation as the cause of the BBQ/typewriter tick. Coyote engines have ticked since 2011, so it's nothing new to the 2018+ Gen 3 Coyote.

The BBQ/typewriter tick typically occurs at idle to 1500 RPM with very slight engine load, which is when the load on the bearings is actually the lowest (low cylinder charge and therefore low combustion pressure). So I can't buy into it being cavitation due to increased engine loads - if oil cavitation was a function of bearing load then it should cavitate and tick like crazy under WOT low RPM conditions. And as I posted somewhere in prior ticking threads, the Coyote tick behaves opposite of what journal bearing cavitation lab tests have shown.

Still think it's mechanical noise induced by the level of friction between parts with excessive clearances, and that's why an oil change may make the tick appear, and why an anti-friction oil additive like Ceratec usually makes the tick go away. But you know all that already, I know.

 

[Condor1970]

^^^ LoL, yeah I still don't really buy into oil cavitation as the cause of the BBQ/typewriter tick. Coyote engines have ticked since 2011, so it's nothing new to the 2018+ Gen 3 Coyote.

The BBQ/typewriter tick typically occurs at idle to 1500 RPM with very slight engine load, which is when the load on the bearings is actually the lowest (low cylinder charge and therefore low combustion pressure). So I can't buy into it being cavitation due to increased engine loads - if oil cavitation was a function of bearing load then it should cavitate and tick like crazy under WOT low RPM conditions. And as I posted somewhere in prior ticking threads, the Coyote tick behaves opposite of what journal bearing cavitation lab tests have shown.

Still think it's mechanical noise induced by the level of friction between parts with excessive clearances, and that's why an oil change may make the tick appear, and why an anti-friction oil additive like Ceratec usually makes the tick go away. But you know all that already, I know.

Something I've been thinking about lately. My oil changes from 5w20 to 5w30 actually had a slight increase in the loudness of the tick. What if it's the HLA's?

What if there is some slack or lag in the lifters, and oil pressure isn't quite good enough at low rpm, but goes away when it gets over 2,000rpm?

Maybe the Ceratec simply provides better lubrication to allow it to operate properly. What if the tick slowly subsides as oil get sold, because oil thins as it breaks down? Also, there's a guy who used Rislone (cleaner/oil thinner), and said it made the tick go away. Maybe those HLA's are so tight, there's some crud that gets stuck in there more easily.

I'd like to know if someone was crazy enough to take a ticking car, and put 0w30 full synthetic to see what it sounds like.

 

[GT Pony]

Something I've been thinking about lately. My oil changes from 5w20 to 5w30 actually had a slight increase in the loudness of the tick. What if it's the HLA's?

What if there is some slack or lag in the lifters, and oil pressure isn't quite good enough at low rpm, but goes away when it gets over 2,000rpm?

Maybe the Ceratec simply provides better lubrication to allow it to operate properly. What if the tick slowly subsides as oil get sold, because oil thins as it breaks down? Also, there's a guy who used Rislone (cleaner/oil thinner), and said it made the tick go away. Maybe those HLA's are so tight, there's some crud that gets stuck in there more easily.

I'd like to know if someone was crazy enough to take a ticking car, and put 0w30 full synthetic to see what it sounds like.

Ford's SSM about the BBQ/typewriter tick says it happens more at oil temp above 150F, which is thinner oil than at start-up. But that also means hotter parts, so hard to say how clearances might change with hot parts. Oil pressure also decreases as the oil gets hot and thins down from the heat.

But if it was the hydraulic lifters ticking, I would think thicker oil would help the lifters operate better/quieter with a higher viscosity oil, like a 0W-40 or 5W-50.

Also, on a sidenote, Ford says the ticking is not detrimental. But oil cavitation in journal bearings can errode and damage bearings. So if it was oil cavitation, then Ford is wrong about it not causing potential damage.

As I've said before, this is like trying to prove big foot exist when all you have is his foot prints in the mud, lol.

 

[Condor1970]

Ford's SSM about the BBQ/typewriter tick says it happens more at oil temp above 150F, which is thinner oil than at start-up. But that also means hotter parts, so hard to say how clearances might change with hot parts. Oil pressure also decreases as the oil gets hot and thins down from the heat.

But if it was the hydraulic lifters ticking, I would think thicker oil would help the lifters operate better/quieter with a higher viscosity oil, like a 0W-40 or 5W-50.

Also, on a sidenote, Ford says the ticking is not detrimental. But oil cavitation in journal bearings can errode and damage bearings. So if it was oil cavitation, then Ford is wrong about it not causing potential damage.

As I've said before, this is like trying to prove big foot exist when all you have is his foot prints in the mud, lol.

Well if it is a spot where oil flashes and pops as it exits the bearing, and not "inside" the bearing, then it wouldn't really cause any harm. Also, it could possibly be a combination of both our initial theories. One thought I had is that if the oil flashes on one side of a big end as it exits the bearing, the expansion may push the big end over and collide with other, and that tick is when it bumps into it. Heck I dunno.

But you're right on the cold oil not ticking. Mine is quiet on startup, then ticks as it warms up. So, maybe it is the thick oil providing the pressure needed for HLA's at low rpm. I wonder if there is a way to manually close the oil bypass at idle to see what effect it has on the tick?

 

[Mazman]

How my motor sounded on Monday morning

 

[GT Pony]

Well if it is a spot where oil flashes and pops as it exits the bearing, and not "inside" the bearing, then it wouldn't really cause any harm. Also, it could possibly be a combination of both our initial theories. One thought I had is that if the oil flashes on one side of a big end as it exits the bearing, the expansion may push the big end over and collide with other, and that tick is when it bumps into it. Heck I dunno.

I'm not sure if oil "flashing and popping" as it exits a journal bearing can actually happen. I tried searching a bit for info on that and couldn't find anything about it. If it does happen, then it could be possible that it makes the rods move side to side and clank together making the tick.

If oil does flash and pop when exiting a journal bearing, then why is it only happening on some Coyotes, and why doesn't it happen on more of the multi millions of vehicles on the road? All journal bearings are pretty much the same design and operate under similar conditions.

The two things that typically happen, and IMO give an important clue to the ticking phenomenon are: 1) The tick can suddenly appear right after an oil change, and 2) The tick can suddenly disappear right after adding an anti-friction product like Ceratec. Both of those are related to a change to the friction level of the oil.

 

[GT Pony]

How my motor sounded on Monday morning

That sounds more dramatic and worse than the typical typewriter tick. Did it just start doing it?

 

[Condor1970]

The two things that typically happen, and IMO give an important clue to the ticking phenomenon are: 1) The tick can suddenly appear right after an oil change, and 2) The tick can suddenly disappear right after adding an anti-friction product like Ceratec. Both of those are related to a change to the friction level of the oil.

This is why I'm starting to wonder if it isn't just lazy/lagging Hydraulic Lash Adjusters at low pressures around 15-20psi. Maybe it has more to do with oil pressure supply to the HLA than the viscosity. When cold, and viscosity is high on startup, so is pressure. Startup pressure is up around 40psi with a fast warmup idle. As the fast idle drops off and oil warms up, viscosity drops and so does pressure. Thus, a lazy HLA starts ticking when idle pressure drops as low as 15psi.

If you add Ceratec and the ticking goes away, then it's quite sensible to assume that as you slowly increase the dosage of Boron, the oil gets more and more slick. The increase in lubricity allows the HLA to operate more easily at those lower pressures. Thus, the tick goes away, even at idle.

If the tick goes away as oil ages, then it's possible the buildup of carbon is doing the same as you theorize with big ends bumping into each other. That carbon is providing more cushioning, along with a drop in viscosity allowing for more ease of oil supply into the HLA.

For most (like me), even when the engine is warmed up and oil is hot, the tick tends to continue until RPM increases to 2,500-3,000rpm, then suddenly goes away. Well, that RPM range is when the oil pump bypass closes and pressure then shoots up to 80psi or higher, and the tick goes away. Logic would say that high pressure suddenly makes all HLA's operate fully with no lag.

 

[Mazman]

The second motor has had the typewriter from the get go. But it feels like it has got worse.

Sometimes I can hear it 5-6m away....I am stranded as no matter what I say or let the dealers hear they say it is normal.

Even my lift off rattle they say is normal..
..

That sounds more dramatic and worse than the typical typewriter tick. Did it just start doing it?

 

[GT Pony]

This is why I'm starting to wonder if it isn't just lazy/lagging Hydraulic Lash Adjusters at low pressures around 15-20psi. Maybe it has more to do with oil pressure supply to the HLA than the viscosity. When cold, and viscosity is high on startup, so is pressure. Startup pressure is up around 40psi with a fast warmup idle. As the fast idle drops off and oil warms up, viscosity drops and so does pressure. Thus, a lazy HLA starts ticking when idle pressure drops as low as 15psi.

If you add Ceratec and the ticking goes away, then it's quite sensible to assume that as you slowly increase the dosage of Boron, the oil gets more and more slick. The increase in lubricity allows the HLA to operate more easily at those lower pressures. Thus, the tick goes away, even at idle.

If the tick goes away as oil ages, then it's possible the buildup of carbon is doing the same as you theorize with big ends bumping into each other. That carbon is providing more cushioning, along with a drop in viscosity allowing for more ease of oil supply into the HLA.

For most (like me), even when the engine is warmed up and oil is hot, the tick tends to continue until RPM increases to 2,500-3,000rpm, then suddenly goes away. Well, that RPM range is when the oil pump bypass closes and pressure then shoots up to 80psi or higher, and the tick goes away. Logic would say that high pressure suddenly makes all HLA's operate fully with no lag.

It's certainly a logical theory ... maybe more so on a 2018+ that has the computer controlled oil pump. Only thing is if it was ticking HLAs, seems the ticking would be more pronounced on the top of the motor right over the valve covers instead of down below the engine behind the front tires.

 

[Condor1970]

It's certainly a logical theory ... maybe more so on a 2018+ that has the computer controlled oil pump. Only thing is if it was ticking HLAs, seems the ticking would be more pronounced on the top of the motor right over the valve covers instead of down below the engine behind the front tires.

Well, logically it tells me that since the HLA is deep inside the metal structure of the head, that ticking noise would easily pipe itself down through the oil passage into the oil pan area. Sort of like a sound tube. And since it's a new plastic oil pan, maybe it is more noticeable like the CJ Pony parts video suggested.

Want to know something weird? I made a comment on this Toyota Tacoma video promoting the new Army Green TRD Pro. It has the new 3.5L engine, so that truck is brand new. At 8:00 in the video, the truck slowly creeps by at low RPM, and when he gives a little gas, you can distinctly hear the exact same Typewriter Tick in that engine. My first question is, what's the compression ratio of that engine? Does it have a low RPM computer controlled oil pump? And, how is the HLA design compared to the Ford 5.0L?

if it's also using a newer computer controlled oil pump that drops pressure down at low RPM like the coyote, it may also have the same lag in the HLA's. Assuming of course it is the same issue, then the theory could potentially transfer to any newer engine with these lower pressure oil pumps.

 

[GT Pony]

^^^ Yeah, that Toyota engine sounds like it's making some ticking noises. That engine is direct injection, so it has a high pressure fuel pump too. Internet search shows it's CR is 11.8:1 and has basically the same cam HLA setup as a Coyote if it's the Gen3 2GR-FKS they started using in 2016. Maybe find a video of one just sitting idling to see if it ticks, or if owners have complained of a similar typewriter ticking on the Toyota boards.

 

[Condor1970]

^^^ Yeah, that Toyota engine sounds like it's making some ticking noises. That engine is direct injection, so it has a high pressure fuel pump too. Internet search shows it's CR is 11.8:1 and has basically the same cam HLA setup as a Coyote if it's the Gen3 2GR-FKS they started using in 2016. Maybe find a video of one just sitting idling to see if it ticks, or if owners have complained of a similar typewriter ticking on the Toyota boards.

They do have a complaint called the "Taco Tick". But, based on the videos I saw, it revolves more around the tapping/knocking sound it makes at idle... Which is primarily the same clanking sound that Ford also said is actually the HPFP at idle that sounds almost like a rod knock. They both have that exact same complaint, and Toyota also attributes that knock at idle to the HPFP.

I have not seen any specific complaints of the random light ticking heard in the Coyote, but it seems based on the fact they both have virtually the same compression ratio, same OHC setup and DI system, that the Typewriter Tick really is something inherent to this type of design.

Sponsored