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Exhaust Click / Tick on Cold Start

Discussion in 'Issues, Repairs, Warranty, TSB, Recalls' started by mustangpegasus51, Jun 24, 2020.

  1. mustangpegasus51

    mustangpegasus51 Active Member

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    #1 mustangpegasus51, Jun 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
    Hey All!

    So my 2019 PP1 makes the noise in the below video on cold start, but only out of one exhaust pipe (well, two out of four on one side only.)

    EDIT: updated video, slightly better but will work on getting higher quality one soon. https://imgur.com/dakdmeX

    EDIT II: Longer video:

    EDIT III: Short video, but noise is pretty obvious. (Headphones recommended if you can't hear it with speakers):

    This came along with--
    • Delayed throttle response on WOT when coming from low or steady speed. (Seems slightly better after transmission computer was flashed by dealer.)
    • Quieter and "raspier" exhaust? (Seems back to normal volume after new tank of gas, quality of sound up for debate.)
    • Burning smell from driver's side of engine bay.
    • Excessive heat from front driver's side wheel well area.
    Maybe I'm just looking for issues, but the smell and the clicking noise make me think something actually did happen to my engine/exhaust that hasn't been handled yet.

    Has anyone ever had this noise and figured out what it was? Thanks in advance for any help!
     
  2. Elp_jc

    Elp_jc Well-Known Member

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    Hey, for starters, you need to list ALL your mods (if any), mileage on your car, year of your car, and details if it just started all of a sudden, after a service, after hitting something, etc. Next, you need to post a better video; I only heard something ultra quickly, but couldn't even tell what it was. Record at least 10 seconds, but I'd do like 20, moving positions, from right, behind, and left of right muffler, then to left muffler, and also from below the resonator, and the engine compartment. If you want good help, you need to put the work to get it :D. Good luck.
     
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    mustangpegasus51

    mustangpegasus51 Active Member

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    #3 mustangpegasus51, Jun 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
    Thank you for the honest feedback. I'll work on getting a better video soon as it's only on cold start.

    In the meantime here's another one I took earlier. It isn't quite what y'all will likely need, but it's better: https://imgur.com/dakdmeX

    Been working with my dealer to figure out as well and am bringing it in for a follow up tomorrow.

    I can provide the rest though:

    2019 GT with Performance Package Level 1
    No mods (yet. :))
    3300 miles

    Had to stop pretty quick after accelerating when in traffic, felt hesitation/delay (almost like a dead pedal) when trying to move again. These issues seemed to be apparent after this.

    Around this time I also filled up my tank, but had to pay cash because the pump's computer payment system was down. I'm wondering if maybe the pumps weren't working right either considering the problems I had after.

    The above happened during a drive that was the first time in a while where I drove more than a mile past my house (stay at home orders in LA county.)

    I brought it to the dealer who flashed the 10r80, but had trouble reproducing the noise (one tech heard it another didn't.) They did find a new curious noise from the engine, but took the car back and tested it instead of leaving it there overnight, which is what I should've done in retrospect. As stated above I'm going to do a follow up, and leave it overnight this time if possible.
     
  4. Elp_jc

    Elp_jc Well-Known Member

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    I could hear it better on the second one, but hard to tell if it's an exhaust leak or coming from the engine. If you put the phone under the muffler, it should become more evident. You also need to list ALL your equipment, if you bought the car new, etc. Does it have active exhaust or not? If you do, the whole thing is ONE piece starting in front of the resonator, to the rear of both mufflers (can't separate anything). Not sure if the regular exhaust is different, but doubt it; it's probably just like my AE, but without the valves. If that's the case, it'd be extremely unlikely there's an exhaust leak from the resonator back... unless you (or previous owner) hit something. But that'd be super easy to check: Just get under the car with the engine running. You should be able to immediately tell if it's a leak or not by ear alone. But you could also confirm the leak with your fingers. Put the phone inside both front wheel wells, to make sure you don't have one on the headers, and it's telegraphing back to the exhaust. Check with FORScan that you don't have any codes.

    Finally, didn't realize you have an AUTO, until you mentioned it (was going to ask you about that). The dead pedal issue could very well be the tranny. Very similar issues with the F-150, especially in normal mode. But there are also issues with the throttle bodies, so it could be that too... as well as a myriad other things, like the throttle position sensor, the gas pedal rheostat, etc. Doubt it's an engine sensor, or you'd have a CEL already. I wouldn't just rely on a dealer, but it's up to you if you want to at least find out what it is, so you can actually tell dealer what they need to fix, rather than leaving everything to them, which in many cases, turns out it wasn't the smartest thing to do. Ha ha. Hope your dealer has an actual master tech. And if they do, I'd ask that only him works on your car. You have better chances of finding the culprit, and getting it fixed right. The main issue is they rarely care about cosmetic stuff, leaving cars with scrapes everywhere. Good luck.
     
  5. ice445

    ice445 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a drivers side catalyst blockage or failure of some kind
     
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    #6 mustangpegasus51, Jun 26, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
    So got some updates:

    Went to dealer to get an oil and filter change and to check out the tick, etc.

    They're claiming the rear ticking is coming from engine tick i.e. typewriter tick and since this is "normal operation" given what's outlined in the typewriter tick TSB, it's normal.

    They also said burning smell from engine bay is normal after working the car hard. Can confirm that this only really happens after spirited driving.

    As far as the acceleration issue it seems hard for them to replicate, although it does shift better since they flashed the transmission.

    I only really notice a weird delay when I accelerate, stop and then try to jam on the throttle again. Is this actually normal behavior and I just haven't been in enough traffic since stay at home?

    I really don't know what to think of the exhaust. Sometimes I think it sounds off/not as loud, sometimes I don't.

    In other news I have a new video to highlight the tick/click/flapping noise:

    One of the more notable things is this noise only happens at cold start, for about a minute then goes away.

    Thinking the best route right now is to drive for a little while to see if maybe the new oil and tune up changed anything. Then get the exhaust checked by a specialty shop (for the tick, if it's anything,) then the rest of the car by a non-dealer mechanic.(See if they notice any unnatural hesitation.) Any suggestions for Long Beach/OC area for a mechanic? I've seen some other threads suggesting places like Hillbank Motorsports.

    Thanks again for any help!
     
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    mustangpegasus51

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    #7 mustangpegasus51, Jun 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
    Welp, any sort of comfort was short-lived.

    Went for a night drive, started in quiet start because of my settings.

    A few minutes into my drive the CEL goes off after hitting the gas pretty hard.

    Put car in Normal Mode for exhaust and CEL isn't on anymore.

    Shifting actually feels fine now. I drive hard again to see if I catch anything again. (I wasn't sure if a one-off CEL would be enough for the dealer.) Went on the highway. Other than the computer stopping the throttle when I was going to go past a certain MPH, it's all good. But car feels slightly underpowered. Also the exhaust tone just isn't right.

    Park the car at home. Hear the following from the engine bay, some of it weird shit that I've NEVER heard:

    Thumping/popping from near air intake, front left wheel well:

    Sprinkler-level hissing noise from the engine cover area:

    Loud constant tick/rattle:

    With OBDII, got:

    Got a P0300 $07E8 Generic (Random, Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected): https://imgur.com/82HH9y8

    Guess it's back to the dealer...
     
  8. ice445

    ice445 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like a vacuum leak. Which will cause a misfire since the computer can't see the pirate air entering the engine. Can you identify where the hiss is coming from exactly?
     
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    #9 mustangpegasus51, Jun 27, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
    Hissing was coming from the "center-top", which I think is the intake manifold? I've been going down a youtube tutorial rabbithole trying to figure things out, I wish I knew car mechanics as well as computer software lol.

    At least all these issues are starting to come together.
     
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    mustangpegasus51

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    Went to the dealer this morning per my appointment, advisor said they wouldn't be able to effectively diagnose unless the engine light is continuously on. I asked them if I need to wait for my engine to blow to get a diagnostic. As expected, this was probably not the best way to start the conversation. (You get more flies with a drop of honey than a gallon of gall.)

    After calming down, he did say that he can try to look for things, but they're simply short-staffed. I told him that's totally understandable, but I want a full diagnostic (when they have enough people/time) to see what's going on - a misfire at 3500 miles, even if a one off, is cause for concern. We scheduled another appointment for Wednesday.

    In the meantime, I did notice that I may have "the tick" or piston slap noise, the latter of which I'm more worried about. I'll post videos later today, maybe someone who's had the tick/slap can help me differentiate if it's one or the other.
     
  11. Elp_jc

    Elp_jc Well-Known Member

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    The 'tick' can be one of 3 things IMO (or a combination of them): piston slap, connecting rod knock, and/or bearing issues. All 3 are due to excessive tolerances, and sound extremely similar when mild (like in most Coyotes). But reportedly, only the last eventually causes the engine to seize. The other 2 are reportedly harmless to the engine... although very annoying, and even embarrassing.

    Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to tell them apart when mild: They all sound almost the same, and come from basically the same area of the engine. Therefore, basically no dealer is going to do anything unless the noise keeps getting worse. Or if it's really bad since new. If it keeps getting worse, it'd be the bearings. If not, then one of the first 2 issues... although I also think piston slap eventually gets worse too, even if slower than bearing issues. At any rate, pisses me off this has been going on since 2011, and we're still talking about it after almost 10 years. Oh well. Bottom line is Ford already said it's 'normal', so they're probably not going to do anything in mild form. The issue here is to keep a recording, or some other form of proof how loud the noise is. And if it keeps getting progressively worse, then you'd have a much better case to make.
     
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    mustangpegasus51

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    #12 mustangpegasus51, Jun 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
    After some more investigating I've been able to pinpoint some noises out of "all the noises" I seem to have. Maybe this will help someone in the future, maybe not:

    Knock noise at idle:

    Associated TSB: http://latemodel.cachefly.net/downloads/instructions/19-2144.pdf
    Diagnosis: Normal. Dealer sent me this TSB last time I went in. Sounds match up pretty much exactly.
    ____________________________________________________
    "The Tick" (Official):

    Associated TSB: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/per-ford-officially-the-2011-2019-f150-mustang-5-0-“typewriter-tick”-is-a-normal-characteristic.116925/
    Diagnosis: Normal. According to Ford.
    ____________________________________________________
    Chirp noise at idle:

    Associated TSB: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2019/MC-10160869-0001.pdf
    Diagnosis: Replace primary timing chain tensioners. (Gonna ask about this next time I'm in.)
    ____________________________________________________
    Thump noise #1 at idle:

    Associated TSB:N/A
    Diagnosis: Unknown. Has been on since CEL went off Friday 6/26/20. Sounds almost organic, like an Akria monster forming. Maybe a fluid/fuel issue?
    ____________________________________________________
    Slap noise at idle (43s into video):

    Associated TSB: N/A
    Diagnosis: Occasional slap noise coming from somewhere between cylinder #1, engine oil resovoir (not sure if right word) and whatever the hose is in the video (I've tried fruitlessly to find diagrams of what the parts are.) Might be associated or the same as the thump noise.
    ____________________________________________________
    Beating noise at idle (44s into video):

    Other example (7s into video):

    Associated TSB: N/A
    Diagnosis: Rapid beating/thumping coming from somewhere near cylinders 5-8 and the airbox, or a hose near them. May be similar/same as thump noise.
    ____________________________________________________
    Rattle noise:

    Associated TSB: N/A
    Diagnosis: This seems like a normal fuel injector noise?
    ____________________________________________________
    Anyways next plan of action when I go into dealer is to ask about:



    • Exhaust tick from original post: It's hard to pic on mic but somehow can hear it from 50ft away in person, but only on cold start. It's not timed the same as the other ticks and doesn't last as long, so I don't think it's resonating from there, as well as it only comes out of one pipe, and seems to stop at the muffler. (Maybe it's this?! https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/strange-rattling-sound-from-exhaust-system.31234/ it's for 2015s but it seems similar. Gonna see if hitting the gas stops the tick tomorrow.)

    • Thump noise: Gonna try to sit with tech and diagnose if I can. Hopefully it's audible when I do.

    • Acceleration/misfiring issues: Car seemed to perform almost normal when it was a really cool night out. I could say it's maybe underperforming in heat, but I bought it in September and ran perfectly fine. The cool air probably let some of these underlying issues hide for a moment. I would say it was something to do with the throttle body, whatever's causing the exhaust tick, the thump, or some other intake/air issue like a vacuum leak which was mentioned earlier in the thread.

    • Maybe check the oil filter for metal flakes/etc.? Although I just got my oil changed, so I'm unsure if I should wait a certain amount of miles to check if anything accumulated.

    Also, is there any way to activate the throttle from the engine bay? I couldn't see a lever near the throttle body to do so.
     
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    mustangpegasus51

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    #13 mustangpegasus51, Jul 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
    So I went to the dealer this afternoon and they've only gotten to the chirp so far. They tested other mustangs with the same equipment etc. and they chirp too. Although I'm not sure if the techs referenced the TSB as my case is still open. However I was able to get back the car for the holiday weekend and haven't heard a chirp, or at least I don't think so.

    Plan is for the next things on my list is to get the exhaust sorted out, with a new AE valve actuator spring, as described here: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/valves-in-active-exhaust-rattling.127063/page-2

    Then examine the thump/tick from what seems like the throttle body. Going to stick with mentioning TSB 18B34 as it matches my build date. Seems to be what was described here: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/signs-of-a-bad-throttle-body.17067/page-2

    For me it was easy to hear from the wheel well:



    However, what I'm not so sure about, and figured it was wroth asking the community about, was this thumping noise along with some hissing. Is the thump normal for our cars? The hissing definitely seems out of place.



    The hissing seems to be coming from near the intake manifold and where the throttle body meets the air intake. This makes me think vacuum leak, per ice445's advice.

    The thump seems similar to the one described here: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/th...nocking-authorized-engine-replacement.110789/ (The noise that appears similar to what I found is at around 19s into a video from that post: ) However, as far as I read, even that OP's new engine is also thumping despite performing just fine.

    Another video with thumping (this is the exact noise from the same spot that mine has it.):



    TL;DR
    In spite of all this posting my main concern is about performance more than noises. The car just seems low on power just a bit and the exhaust seems weak or maybe hindered by the low power. It idles around 600rpm which seems normal according to what I've read.

    However, it seems unlikely anyone would look to the engine (which I hope it isn't) unless they find an abnormal amount of metal flakes in the oil.

    If I wanted the dealer to check for excess metal in the oil, after how many miles should I ask? I just got my oil change at 3500 miles the week I started this thread.
     
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    mustangpegasus51

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    Did some diagnosis today on the holiday before evening plans.

    Thumping goes away COMPLETELY when I turn on the AC. Both from the engine bay and whatever inconsistent popping/thumping is coming from the intake or throttle body. it comes back almost immediately when I turn the AC off. The AC also struggled for a second when I turned it on for the first time in a while. (In the heat I just put my windows down to hear the exhaust, which as said isn't performing properly either.) Some say it's the throttle body: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/popping-or-thumping-noise-in-cai.103995/ Although that thread seems to point to an opposite relationship with the AC.

    I'm also getting abnormal fuel economy (relative to this car, average 11mpg on 87?) and jerky performance.

    It's enough diagnosing for today and I'm gonna enjoy the holiday. Tomorrow I take off the engine cover and investigate further.
     
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    Your 'thumping' is the infamous 'tick'. It is very sporadic on your car, but it's there. And a bit louder than the typical I've heard. Those stupid ticks worry me because they could be several things (piston slap, rod knock, excessive bearing clearances), and not all are harmless. Unless they get worse, Ford is probably not going to do anything at this point, so just get it documented, record it and keep the recording, and just keep driving the car. The lack of power could be just your expectations, so drive another car like yours, and determine if it's a real issue or not. And as far as idle, my car idles hot at 650 rpm, so seems like yours is close to normal. Good luck.
     
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