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Exhaust bottleneck and power loss

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SheepDog

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gimmie11s

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My advise is that if you really want to know, without changing it all, install a pressure gauge in the collector. I’ve actually thought about a method to use the o2 sensor hole to measure it. Lingenfelter (or maybe Vizard) stated decades ago to try to keep it under 5 psi. I’ve found that to be a good number, but supercharged is the least sensitive to it. An NA engine with a lot of cam overlap is more sensitive and turbo motors are as well due to the gross pressure imbalance across the cylinder. I’ve measured turbo exhaust manifold pressures from 34 to 48 psi on a 9 second single turbo setup running 17 to 22 psi boost, just for reference. Btw, you really don’t want scavenging in a supercharged engine because you already have boost tending to push charge through the chamber during valve overlap. More scavenging can just pull more charge out the exhaust. With supercharged, it’s like Goldilocks because too much or too little backpressure can hurt power. Again, cam overlap comes into play as well.

2:1 exhaust pressure vs manifold pressure is actually not bad.

It’s been said if you can achieve 1:1 there is A LOT of power to be had.

I went on a mission to find out back in my DSM days but never finished the project
 

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At the same power level the turbo motor is probably actually flowing less exhaust.
Incorrect. An ICE is just a giant air pump. To make more power, you have to pump more air through the system. Fuel is just the catalyst.
 

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Incorrect. An ICE is just a giant air pump. To make more power, you have to pump more air through the system. Fuel is just the catalyst.
A good turbo setup requires less airflow to make the same power because you’re not taking so much power off the about to drive the blower. This is why 12 psi from a turbo can put 850 to the wheels but only makes 750 when supercharged.
 

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A good turbo setup requires less airflow to make the same power because you’re not taking so much power off the about to drive the blower. This is why 12 psi from a turbo can put 850 to the wheels but only makes 750 when supercharged.
Correct Mike, but the higher power level comes from much less parasitic drag losses, not less CFM. You cannot makes more power with less air/oxygen moving through the engine. The average supercharger at lets say 12psi, will usually take around 80-130hp or crank power to compress the intake charge. Some more, some less.
 

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Correct Mike, but the higher power level comes from much less parasitic drag losses, not less CFM.
I didn’t say the higher power comes from less cfm. I said it flows less cfm for the same power level. Less parasitic loss means you will make more power at the same airflow. You admit that 100 or so hp can now go to the flywheel that otherwise would have been absorbed by the supercharged. That equates to more power at the same airflow. Conversely, you can make the same power with less airflow.

You cannot makes more power with less air/oxygen moving through the engine....
Not true. If the engine is more efficient, as turbocharged engines are, it will make the same power with less airflow, more power with the same airflow, or anything in between.
 

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@Roh92cp IIRC, your issue was slightly different. Can you offer some insight?
I've have some experiences here, but the changes in power may not be 100 % exhaust related so keep that in mind. I had Kooks no cats and MBRP 3" exhaust with 3" straight through oval mufflers. I had 2 choke points the Borla mid resonator with the 2 1/4' in and 2 1/2" out design resonator and then the Kooks had the 3" to 2 1/4" choke down. Dyno at 730 wheels with that way below what I should be at with my setup and PBD cal. I went too work changing everything that could be an issue and exhaust was one so made a complete 3" all chokes out now and straight through resonators in place off the Borla. The other changes was reduced meth injection from 12GPH to 7gph and this time picked up power 784 with same fuel. Not sure which one made the biggest deference between exhaust and meth reduction but picked up 54 wheel.

Before the exhaust change I asked a lot of people, and researched and couldn't find any direct evidence like back to back dyno with just the choke points changes. I did however hear alot of antidotal statements like, "I made 875 wheel with choke point so it's not an issue" and stuff like that. I would think anyone with choke points making 750 plus will benefit without them how much exactly remains a mystery.
 
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I've have some experiences here, but the changes in power may not be 100 % exhaust related so keep that in mind. I had Kooks no cats and MBRP 3" exhaust with 3" straight through oval mufflers. I had 2 choke points the Borla mid resonator with the 2 1/4' in and 2 1/2" out design resonator and then the Kooks had the 3" to 2 1/4" choke down. Dyno at 730 wheels with that way below what I should be at with my setup and PBD cal. I went too work changing everything that could be an issue and exhaust was one so made a complete 3" all chokes out now and straight through resonators in place off the Borla. The other changes was reduced meth injection from 12GPH to 7gph and this time picked up power 784 with same fuel. Not sure which one made the biggest deference between exhaust and meth reduction but picked up 54 wheel.

Before the exhaust change I asked a lot of people, and researched and couldn't find any direct evidence like back to back dyno with just the choke points changes. I did however hear alot of antidotal statements like, "I made 875 wheel with choke point so it's not an issue" and stuff like that. I would think anyone with choke points making 750 plus will benefit without them how much exactly remains a mystery.
Thank you for your reply. I would think that most of those gains came from the exhaust changes. 12GPH should easily be consumed efficiently by a motor this size, depending on your water/meth ratio. I had a 7GPH nozzle on a Mazdaspeed3 with a 50/50 mixture, and that car was putting 400 to the wheels. So the factory midpipe connection is 2 1/4"? I thought it was 2.5".
 

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I've have some experiences here, but the changes in power may not be 100 % exhaust related so keep that in mind. I had Kooks no cats and MBRP 3" exhaust with 3" straight through oval mufflers. I had 2 choke points the Borla mid resonator with the 2 1/4' in and 2 1/2" out design resonator and then the Kooks had the 3" to 2 1/4" choke down. Dyno at 730 wheels with that way below what I should be at with my setup and PBD cal. I went too work changing everything that could be an issue and exhaust was one so made a complete 3" all chokes out now and straight through resonators in place off the Borla. The other changes was reduced meth injection from 12GPH to 7gph and this time picked up power 784 with same fuel. Not sure which one made the biggest deference between exhaust and meth reduction but picked up 54 wheel.

Before the exhaust change I asked a lot of people, and researched and couldn't find any direct evidence like back to back dyno with just the choke points changes. I did however hear alot of antidotal statements like, "I made 875 wheel with choke point so it's not an issue" and stuff like that. I would think anyone with choke points making 750 plus will benefit without them how much exactly remains a mystery.
Bingo.. there it is.
 

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The bottleneck is going to be the green cats, there have been numerous tests with them where they either failed or choked down the power a lot.
 

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I’ve been wondering about the one connection point as well. Beefcake told me the same thing he posted in this thread. I figured it would be a good idea to take his word for it. But there is still a little part of me that is curious. ;) even more than power my main concern would be efficiency ( which I know are essentially the same thing) of the blower— keeping boost pressure as low as possible...
so if the bottleneck is hurting me in that department it might be worth fixing.

I’m just about to install green cats on my setup...I unfortunately need them in my area.. no easy way to get around it.

does anyone have first hand experience with them failing? ..what Power level?
 

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I’ve been wondering about the one connection point as well. Beefcake told me the same thing he posted in this thread. I figured it would be a good idea to take his word for it. But there is still a little part of me that is curious. ;) even more than power my main concern would be efficiency ( which I know are essentially the same thing) of the blower— keeping boost pressure as low as possible...
so if the bottleneck is hurting me in that department it might be worth fixing.

I’m just about to install green cats on my setup...I unfortunately need them in my area.. no easy way to get around it.

does anyone have first hand experience with them failing? ..what Power level?
Green cats can fail and mine were showing signs after 2 years of failing, the center on one was folding in from heat at 745 wheel.
 

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Green cats can fail and mine were showing signs after 2 years of failing, the center on one was folding in from heat at 745 wheel.
Yikes! That’s not supposed to be the case right? Don’t they have some sort of guarantee?
 

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Green cats can fail and mine were showing signs after 2 years of failing,
Green Cats are not that good. GESI "Global Emission Systems Inc." is the MFG.
If your running Cats on your boosted motor there are very limited options on Cats that will survive other than the OEM 600 cpsi unit.
HJS is by far the best of the best with their patented Tri-Core brazed substrate. These things survive being bolted up directly to turbo outlet. Expensive but work and will pass most emission test standards.
Performance Industries. in Coppell TX is another quality brazed substrate catalytic that shows promise hanging off turbo outlets. Beta testing is currently underway on 300 cpsi High Flow non-mantled units.

Milltek Sports is about the best retailer for HJS cats.
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