EV's.......... 😂😂😂😂😂

[luca1290]

you mean 98% of EU countries that is...

???

Where is your data coming from?
You know that big headlines, if you care to read them, are completely misleading?
Like "30% Cars sold in EU are electric": fake news, that comes from Tesla that held sales for 4 months than delivered all the cars in august, when all the other dealers are on vacation. The only people not on vacation were the Tesla buyers, waiting for daddy Elon to release their cars so he can boost this/his fake narrative.

The real picture is something more like 2% in average and it's coming down, I almost see 0 new BEV with new license plates. And the ones I see are the "known by everyone" early adopter, or their families who drank the same kool aid, mostly people who don't need real car for their movements.

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[xcm77]

Where is your data coming from?

EU law. New ICE engines are banned from being registered EU wide from 2035 (initially 2030) unless they run on e-fuels (which currently cost like 40€/liter IIRC). Again, this is an EU wide law, all member states must comply.

You know that big headlines, if you care to read them, are completely misleading?

Yes, I know that.

The real picture is something more like 2% in average and it's coming down

Correct, it's ~2% but all manufactures are slowly but surely stopping ICE production (BMW built its last ICE last week; others will follow).

You also might not be aware that the EU parliament passed a bill that severely restricts bloc members veto powers ("in a total of 65 areas of law; These include the transfer of inclusive competency on the matters of environmental protection and biodiversity, meaning that law pertaining to those matters would be entirely set at the European level" -- https://cyprus-mail.com/2023/11/22/european-parliament-votes-to-abolish-member-states-veto/). So you see, member states won't impose different rules but rather all dance to the same tune.

 

[luca1290]

EU law. New ICE engines are banned from being registered EU wide from 2035 (initially 2030) unless they run on e-fuels (which currently cost like 40€/liter IIRC). Again, this is an EU wide law, all member states must comply.

I saw just now where you are writing from, now everything it's clearer to me.

[...] e-fuels (which currently cost like 40€/liter IIRC) [...]

Not true. ENI (Ente Nazionale Idrocarburi, one of the biggest oil company in the world just so you know) is selling in Italy the HVOlution at 10 cents less than regular diesel.

(BMW built its last ICE last week; others will follow).

In Germany ,it's just leaving Germany, not the whole world. Ah, you know why every industry is leaving Germany? Because the Germans are actively killing it!

I'm not gonna buy the Germany way of doing things for the third time... (to be precise: I hope the rest of the continent does not follows Germany's endeavors for the third time in a century, given the track record. It could sound as dark humor, but it's not.)

 

[xcm77]

I saw just now where you are writing from, now everything it's clearer to me.

Then also make sure to read my footer ;)

Not true. ENI (Ente Nazionale Idrocarburi, one of the biggest oil company in the world just so you know) is selling in Italy the HVOlution at 10 cents less than regular diesel.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Still, it's diesel not petrol.

In Germany ,it's just leaving Germany, not the whole world.

It applies to the whole of the EU, not just DE. Ofc they'll still buld engines for the world (ie. AMG builds Pagani engines)

Ah, you know why every industry is leaving Germany? Because the Germans are actively killing it!

I won't argue with you there.

I'm not gonna buy the Germany way of doing things for the third time... (to be precise: I hope the rest of the continent does not follows Germany's endeavors for the third time in a century, given the track record. It could sound as dark humor, but it's not.)

I know what you mean.

 

[luca1290]

Then also make sure to read my footer ;)

That's better .

It's... politics. There's nothing here I or you, as a singular person, can do (except vote better). The mood now is this so we just have to wait and let it pass.

But Laws are not Commandments, that's my point of view, and as such, they do change when the people writing those, changes.

It applies to the whole of the EU, not just DE. Ofc they'll still buld engines for the world (ie. AMG builds Pagani engines)

That's true, but it's more true in Germany, partly because of their demential energy policy and hostile political environment towards industries.
See Italy, we are on the opposite way of the scale, what we have here now is definitely working. Many people would never had told that Italy were the strongest growing economy while Germany the slowest, threating to pull all of the continent with them.

 

[xcm77]

That's better .

That's true, but it's more true in Germany, partly because of their demential energy policy and hostile political environment towards industries.

What do you mean? Don't you wanna go full electric to ...... save the penguins?

 

[luca1290]

What do you mean? Don't you wanna go full electric to ...... save the penguins?

I do wanna save the penguins, but in a pragmatic way that also helps people in their lives. There are a lot of technologies that we can employ in a very vastity of fields, and the point is: we are already doing that but it takes time.

Insulate your house, that alone does a lot more than what you are going to save by change your car. And that's one. The market chooses them because they make sense (industrially/economically).

Point is, the political discussion is already poisoned on one side because either you do as they say or you are a fascist (I had that title said to me, the funny thing is my family is the one which in my zone of Italy started the partisan movement!).

 

[Austin1992]

I own a 1983 f350 with the 6.9 diesel. I’m almost set up to be able to filter waste motor oil and once that is done I would only need a heated fuel system to run waste vegetable oil year round. I have ran it off new unused motor oil and transmission fluid before. 2 spare engines in the garage, won’t need an EV in my lifetime.

 

[WItoTX]

want in one hand and shit in the other, tell me which fills up first.

the fact that this is a political argument should tell you the technology isn't ready yet because if they did we wouldn't even be talking about this. they'd be flying off the lots and lives would be enriched by the wonders of this new technology... but they aren't because its just a newer version of the same EV's invented in the late 1800's.

I'm not disagreeing with you on anything market driven. It's clear the market wants gas and hybrid drivetrains. Hell, I will take a hybrid system like the P1 or 918 or LaFerrari any day.

But its market vs regulatory environment.

 

[Cobra Jet]

Perhaps. But they'll sell 30pct of current run rate. Let them try to keep the business running with a 66pct reduction in sales.

Politicians never admit they are more stupid than the average Joe Plummer or otr driver. Their only shtick is pretend they are the authority on topics they know absolutely nothing about.

It's the economy, stupid was a phrase not too far back. It will always be thus.

I'm more amazed gm et. al. Went along with the patently absurd govt imposed dictates in the first place.

You shouldn't be amazed at GM's disfunctionality - we're talking about the same Company that needed to be bailed out years ago (and probably still hasn't paid back it's debt)... We should have let them faulter and shrivel up instead of propping them up or giving a handout to Company that could not properly manage itself. Hell, we could have ended the Camaro much sooner than that crutch on wheels....

It's another one of those "where'd all the money go".... but no one ever has the answer or takes responsibility, but hey while we (taxpayer dollars) bailed them out with $$$$$$ let's keep paying their Prez's, VP's, CEO's and any other "xxO's" millions in salaries, bonuses and stock options for doing absolutely nothing (other than mismanage and make money disappear).



(Back to our EV subject matter)...

 

[Cobra Jet]

It's not hard to understand why GM, Ford, BMW, etc can't produce a good EV for a decent price. They just started too late and and don't have the will or money to play long term catch up at a loss. But just as big a factor is how Tesla, particularly has revolutionized building cars. It's a good thing for the legacy automakers, Tesla doesn't want to build ICE vehicles too. All of the legacies cruised along with no desire to improve production. They didn't have to. Lots of up front costs but as long as none of them went down that road it did not effect competition.

But I'm telling you, don't hate the government or anyone else for trying to ram them down anyone's throats. They are doing folks like us a huge favor because without idiots in government picking up the tab these hot rods would have never been created. You may not like that the guv spent your money to make this happen, but don't forget they used a WHOLE lot more of other people's money to make EVs happen. And EVs make it much cheaper to build muscle versions than with ICE vehicles.

I could care less about "green". I'm loving driving a 3 second 0-60 car that costs about the same and weighs about the same as the current equivalent of my 2016 GT. I thought I would hate no manual transmission since my wife and I haven't bought anything else since '91 when we could not resist a Syclone. But quick beats stick in my enjoyment equation. Not to mention dirt cheap fuel and all sorts of tech benefits not possible with ICE vehicles. Example: live where its cold or where its 110 plus half of the year like I do, its damn nice to have the car at the exact temperature inside when you get to it regardless of where its parked. And that's not even counting the built in loudspeaker and fart sound generator.

I still enjoy the GT and the sound and manual trans, but I don't drive it as much particularly when weather is bad. For road trips, where quickness is not as useful and fuel savings are lower, Mustang will usually get the nod. But around town with all its zero to speed limit events, hard to resist the Model 3 Performance.

These car companies could and can produce any vehicle for a good price - but they are too far flung in GREED. Tell me how it's justifiable that an F150 with some decent creature features is upwards of $100k, or a Mustang pushing in excess of $60k....

Nothing has changed with the actual materials being sourced - it's still metals, cloth/leather, plastics, circuitry, glass, foam, and all the available hardware fasteners that has been used over the last 20-30 years (of more modern vehicles).

Sure, I'll give them the "tech" that has changed or has improved over the years - but c'mon now, the RAW materials and initial basic element of manufacturing hasn't changed at all, for any of these companies. Plus they've eliminated many workers and replaced them with automated Bots these days. Yes initial outlay for a Bot can be a few hundred grand to millions+, but long term the company is saving salary increases, union BS, the 401k match, health benefits or other retirement benefits that follow an employee to death.

Ford could easily put a $22k Mustang out there for the masses - but they won't. The same is true with BMW and their popular 3-Series or 5-Series, they could do it cheaper too, they won't.

Do you think for a second that if they DID they would be losing any money? They wouldn't lose anything, in fact people would flock to buy because of the price point. They'd still be making their billions in profits.

The price point today is a far reach for those first starting out in the world as far as a median salary. Not everyone starts out at $100k+...

The main problem today is pure greed... If the TV companies can now produce freaking 85" huge ass flat screen TV's for only $500-$700, as opposed to being $3k+, then you damn well bet your rear that the car companies COULD do the same.

They only see the $$$$-signs, that's it. Power hungry with blinders.

Ford isn't the Ford it should be - Henry Ford's original element was to be able to produce a vehicle for the masses where the masses could AfFORD it, not produce something that one can no longer afford "new"....

The car companies are way out of touch with the consumer. Not everyone wants flat screens in their vehicles, not everyone wants the removal of all knobs/buttons, not everyone wants electronic auto transmissions, not everyone wants displays that face totally forward that are not angled TOWARDS the DRIVER, and certainly not everyone is interested in vehicles that can go drive themselves (into walls, other cars or pedestrians) - less the manufacturer trying to shove EV's down everyone's throat.

New cars are sitting on lots because not everyone can shell out $40k-$50k-$60k-80k+, that's total fact. These Car Companies could "do", but don't.

 

[K4fxd]

No, they wouldn't have. Nobody would have. If the govt wasn't literally paying people to buy them, nobody would have built them. They likely would not have happened if the govt had not paid for the massive start up costs with credits and other incentives to both

Tesla's were around before the mandates.

I agree the incentives need to stop. 7500 from the feds, (my wallet) and 6000 from some States, plus the hidden subsidies.

 

[WItoTX]

You shouldn't be amazed at GM's disfunctionality - we're talking about the same Company that needed to be bailed out years ago (and probably still hasn't paid back it's debt)... We should have let them faulter and shrivel up instead of propping them up or giving a handout to Company that could not properly manage itself. Hell, we could have ended the Camaro much sooner than that crutch on wheels....

It's another one of those "where'd all the money go".... but no one ever has the answer or takes responsibility, but hey while we (taxpayer dollars) bailed them out with $$$$$$ let's keep paying their Prez's, VP's, CEO's and any other "xxO's" millions in salaries, bonuses and stock options for doing absolutely nothing (other than mismanage and make money disappear).



(Back to our EV subject matter)...

Oh they totally paid it back. Just don't look up how much was given to them, and how much was paid back (and ignore that in 2007 GM lost $31 billion, and in 2008 $40 billion).

What pisses me off about that little fiasco is what WE lost out of it. Pontiac. Olds. Saturn. Holden. Car companies that were returning to making good cars (At least Pontiac, Holden and Saturn). And lets not forget how screwed the shareholders got, so that preferred stock holders took no hit.

But I digress as well. Back to market forces vs government forces.

 

[K4fxd]

These car companies could and can projected any vehicle for a good price - but they are too far flung in GREED. Tell me how it's justifiable that an F150 with some decent creature features is Howard's of $100k, or a Mustang pushing in excess of $60k....

The same reason bacon went from 4 dollars to 12

Ford could easily put a $22k Mustang out there for the masses - but they won't. The same is true with BMW and their popular 3-Series or 5-Series, they could do it cheaper too, they won't.

Too many GOV regulations for this to ever happen

 

[WItoTX]

These car companies could and can projected any vehicle for a good price - but they are too far flung in GREED. Tell me how it's justifiable that an F150 with some decent creature features is Howard's of $100k, or a Mustang pushing in excess of $60k....

Nothing has changed with the actual materials being sourced - it's still metals, cloth/leather, plastics, circuitry, glass, foam, and all the available hardware fasteners that has been used over the last 20-30 years (of more modern vehicles).

Sure, I'll give them the "tech" that has changed or has improved over the years - but c'mon now, the RAW materials and initial basic element of manufacturing hasn't changed at all, for any of these companies. Plus they've eliminated many workers and replaced them with automated Bots these days. Yes initial outlay for a Bot can be a few hundred grand to millions+, but long term the company is saving salary increases, union BS, the 401k match, health benefits or other retirement benefits that follow an employee to death.

Ford could easily put a $22k Mustang out there for the masses - but they won't. The same is true with BMW and their popular 3-Series or 5-Series, they could do it cheaper too, they won't.

Do you think for a second that if they DID they would be losing any money? They wouldn't lose anything, in fact people would flock to buy because of the price point. They'd still be making their billions in profits.

The price point today is a far reach for those first starting out in the world as far as a median salary. Not everyone starts out at $100k+...

The main problem today is pure greed... If the TV companies can now produce freaking 85" huge ass flat screen TV's for only $500-$700, as opposed to being $3k+, then you damn well bet your rear that the car companies COULD do the same.

They only see the $$$$-signs, that's it. Power hungry with blinders.

Ford isn't the Ford it should be - Henry Ford's original element was to be able to produce a vehicle for the masses where the masses could AfFORD it, not produce something that one can no longer afford "new"....

The car companies are way out of touch with the consumer. Not everyone wants flat screens in their vehicles, not everyone wants the removal of all knobs/buttons, not everyone wants electronic auto transmissions, not everyone wants displays that face totally forward that are not angled TOWARDS the DRIVER, and certainly not everyone is interested in vehicles that can go drive themselves (into walls, other cars or pedestrians) - less the manufacturer trying to shove EV's down everyone's throat.

New cars are sitting on lots because not everyone can shell out $40k-$50k-$60k-80k+, that's total fact. These Car Companies could "do", but don't.

You are missing the core component of why new cars cost so much. And it's the reason EVs are being crammed down our throat. Regulation.

It takes a billion dollars to bring a truck to market. This has been told to me by a Toyota executive, every time I hassle him that I want a 3/4 ton diesel Toyota. And for what share of the market?

Well, their market research shows that most folks are still going to buy a Big Three diesel over Toyota (Think fleet sales). And America is the only place that 3/4 ton and 1 ton trucks are generally sold. So now, you are selling to a saturated market, on a platform that is North America only, to people who are already content with what is on the market. Where is the profit?

Now, reel back the regulations (safety, emissions, CARB, etc...), and it's a different ballgame. Innovation would rule the day, and, this is me speaking now, I'd bet Toyota builds a 3/4 and 1 ton platform truck.

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