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dpAtlanta

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When politics meet physics people will then say, wow we were wrong.

Probably not, they will just say they need more money.
How trueโ€ฆ well said my friend!
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Oakley

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You don't have to believe me. The link goes right to their website and says they want everyone in electric cars. :like:

BTW, America isn't the predominant car market anymore anyway. China has far more people, as does India. And those governments can improve their will. And they will be the biggest market share before long.
want in one hand and shit in the other, tell me which fills up first.

the fact that this is a political argument should tell you the technology isn't ready yet because if they did we wouldn't even be talking about this. they'd be flying off the lots and lives would be enriched by the wonders of this new technology... but they aren't because its just a newer version of the same EV's invented in the late 1800's.
 

shogun32

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they will just say they need more money.
**** never admit what they did/doing is wrong, just that they haven't been allowed to do enough of it yet, or it wasn't done correctly/pure.

Jim Quinn's first law.
 

HoosierDaddy

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It's not hard to understand why GM, Ford, BMW, etc can't produce a good EV for a decent price. They just started too late and and don't have the will or money to play long term catch up at a loss. But just as big a factor is how Tesla, particularly has revolutionized building cars. It's a good thing for the legacy automakers, Tesla doesn't want to build ICE vehicles too. All of the legacies cruised along with no desire to improve production. They didn't have to. Lots of up front costs but as long as none of them went down that road it did not effect competition.

But I'm telling you, don't hate the government or anyone else for trying to ram them down anyone's throats. They are doing folks like us a huge favor because without idiots in government picking up the tab these hot rods would have never been created. You may not like that the guv spent your money to make this happen, but don't forget they used a WHOLE lot more of other people's money to make EVs happen. And EVs make it much cheaper to build muscle versions than with ICE vehicles.

I could care less about "green". I'm loving driving a 3 second 0-60 car that costs about the same and weighs about the same as the current equivalent of my 2016 GT. I thought I would hate no manual transmission since my wife and I haven't bought anything else since '91 when we could not resist a Syclone. But quick beats stick in my enjoyment equation. Not to mention dirt cheap fuel and all sorts of tech benefits not possible with ICE vehicles. Example: live where its cold or where its 110 plus half of the year like I do, its damn nice to have the car at the exact temperature inside when you get to it regardless of where its parked. And that's not even counting the built in loudspeaker and fart sound generator.

I still enjoy the GT and the sound and manual trans, but I don't drive it as much particularly when weather is bad. For road trips, where quickness is not as useful and fuel savings are lower, Mustang will usually get the nod. But around town with all its zero to speed limit events, hard to resist the Model 3 Performance.
 

sk47

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the technology isn't ready yet because if they did we wouldn't even be talking about this. they'd be flying off the lots and lives would be enriched by the wonders of this new technology..
Hello; So very correct. If the BEV was a better vehicle they would sell themselves. The mandates and incentives paid for with other peoples money would not be necessary.
The rationalization for the mandated EV push is a version of save the planet. Sad part is there is substantial evidence the green energy & EV future will simply exchange one form of pollurtion for a slightly different form.
 

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K4fxd

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It's not hard to understand why GM, Ford, BMW, etc can't produce a good EV for a decent price.
It's because the battery's are so expensive.

Tesla can't sell cars anymore either, hence all the price cutting currently going on.
 

HoosierDaddy

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Sad part is there is substantial evidence the green energy & EV future will simply exchange one form of pollurtion for a slightly different form.
I'm telling ya, it's not sad even if green really mattered one way or another.

We "performance junkies" would not have cheap 3 second cars if not for the morons who forced them on us. :wink:

But if the contrary posts are more of the nature of "please, don't throw me in the briar patch", I don't want to spoil the party.
 

K4fxd

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We "performance junkies" would not have cheap 3 second cars if not for the morons who forced them on us. :wink:
Sure we would. Musk would have built EV's so would other manufacturers. Choice is a great thing.

I'm still pissed from the banning of my favorite light bulbs.
 

rocsteady

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One, I would like to know how the math works for adding, by orders of magnitude, vehicles that need electricity while simultaneously cutting out the sources of that electricity. California already limiting when and for how long you can charge them, run your A/C, and only the one tree hugger per five city blocks even has an EV yet.
Two, notice how no one will answer the questions about the "footprint" that's left by mining, creating, and then trying to dispose of zillions of these giant batteries. I am pretty sure I saw a source claiming that an EV has to reach 70,000 miles to come close to breaking even on the "emissions" from building it compared to what an ICE car would have produced.
Three, wonder how our aging bridges, overpasses, parking garages will deal with the excessive increase in weight of these battery powered, soulless abominations?
Four, the current administration has cleverly given away/lost/abandoned many of the areas of the planet that contain the materials necessary to produce the batteries for these supposed saviors of the planet vehicles.
Five, seems to me that we've made huge strides in synthetic fuel development as well as unbelievable strides in cleaning up the emissions of ICE engines over the last several decades. What's the problem with slowing this mad rush down a tad to allow it to happen in some sort of orderly and controlled fashion, without creating so many hardships for our citizens and our country in general, with the added benefit of being able to sell energy to our allies instead of having to buy it from our enemies?
 

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sk47

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I am pretty sure I saw a source claiming that an EV has to reach 70,000 miles to come close to breaking even on the "emissions" from building it compared to what an ICE car would have produced.
Hello; Here is a link to an article about a Volvo study and a link to the Volvo study itself. Best i recall the study took into account the mining of rare minerals to make the batteries and other production environmental costs. The milage best as i can recall was around 69,000 miles the EV has to be driven before it begins to break even with an ICE. I do not think the recycling of EV batteries was addressed which ought to skew the needed EV mileage to go way up.

Another factor not yet considered is the probable "throw away" aspect of an EV a few years old. Seems likely an older EV will have little to no trade in value nor be economically practical to fix if the battery or electronics go bad.
I can go into the environmental economics of new production if wanted. But basically there is a big environmental impact when a new vehicle is produced. The longer a vehicle can stay in service before being replaced with a newly produced one can save a lot of environmental impact. My current car is a 2001 model. by keeping it in good running condition I have avoided the impact from manufacture of several new replacements.
One way to look at the impact of an all-new EV fleet is the production impact involved especially if functional ICE's are scrapped prematurely.

Volvo says manufacturing an EV generates 70% more emissions than its ICE counterpart - AutoBuzz.my

Volvo_carbonfootprintreport.pdf (volvocars.com)
 

HoosierDaddy

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Sure we would. Musk would have built EV's so would other manufacturers.
No, they wouldn't have. Nobody would have. If the govt wasn't literally paying people to buy them, nobody would have built them. They likely would not have happened if the govt had not paid for the massive start up costs with credits and other incentives to both

Point being it was a terrible thing for the govt to do BUT that does not mean that some people don't benefit. I say that power junkies are one of the groups that benefit. But many don't realize it yet because they are so angry with how the govt did it. A bit of forest for the trees IMHO. I think water under the bridge is a better metaphor to embrace.
 

HoosierDaddy

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I don't get the obsession about this anymore. Either it's gonna happen or it's not, who cares? Gonna be a long time regardless until you can't fire up your V8 any longer.
Absolutely.
 

Ole Texan

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โ€œPLENTY of cars to last us the next 100 years already built here in america.โ€

14,600,000 cars and pickups sold in 2000, where on earth are those 1.6 billion cars stored?

Automakers can shut down for a long time โ˜บ
 

Dave2013M3

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Hate to tell you, but EVs are coming whether you like it or not. It has nothing to do with what hte market wants. Cali has banned ICE starting 2035 for new cars. Several places in the EU have done the same.

California, specifically CARB, has been given defacto authority to dictate emissions. If CARB has gone that way, the rest of the US will follow. And with the EU on the same path, large markets will adjust.

Sorry, but EVs are going to be the future unless some MASSIVE regulatory change happens, and production moves to China/India/etc...you get the idea.

Just to be clear. I dispise EVs. But what the market wants is not what the rules will allow. And the market will blink, just like it did in the late 70s.

This is an executive order, it can be rescinded. This also doesn't stop Hybird's. So you could have a Hybrid and that will be legal for sale after 2035. BTW, there is no law in buying the car in another state and moving it to Cali. ICE vehicles will be around for quite awhile. Also, if the Republicans can get the Presidency and keep the house and senate there is legislation outlawing states doing this. Manufacturers said they will still build them as only a handful of states are doing this...the far left blue states. I'm not getting political just stating facts.

I do believe when they see how unobtainable this is, there will be a correction. I do believe it would happen, but not by 2035.
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