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HoosierDaddy

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Hello; I am going to guess this is a reference to the way Musk has embraced robot s in the assembly line???
More about how the systems are designed than assembly costs, Watch the Munroe video above. It compares Tesla AC system with Ford Lightning. That was the sort of thing that got me excited. The fact that my Tesla is an EV was less important to me than how the rest of it made most ICE vehicles seem quaintly old fashion.

The lightning in that video is also an EV but the way it was engineered applies to their ICE vehicles. It's stunning. Legacy automakers will have to do the same kind of things with their ICE vehicles that Tesla is doing or become shells of their former selves.
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sk47

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There is going to be significant wasted capacity at some time of any day.
Being annoyed at anyone paying for excess capacity makes about as much sense as being annoyed by people who buy things on Black Friday that you paid more for months before.
Brilliant! Again, you seem as upset about what someone else is getting as much or more as about your elected officials sticking it to you.
Hello; I will lump the above quotes a bit. If all or even most have EV there will not be significant wasted capacity in gride anymore. maybe on clear sunny days with high winds on more rare occasions.
I think there is a consensus that the demand for electric power will become enormous if we get to an all EV fleet. Even currently there are calls for reduced power use often. But lets pretend the power capacity problems are solved.
I do not get upset with a consumer taking advantage of low rates if available. I do blame the officials who skew thing so I get stuck paying for someone's EV. The folks in charge are to blame.
I have tried to work thru the practicality & financial outcome of taking advantage of incentives on EV's currently. Going past screwing my neighbors there are still things tilting the scale away from an EV. The cost of a home charger for one. Insurance is another although i have not asked for a quote. Trade in value. Tires for an EV cost more according to reports and likely will wear out quicker. Most states will be adding fees to EV owners to make up for lost road taxes.
I would have a home charger but it is clear charging way from home will cost more than ICE fuel when you can find a working charger.


A Model 3 Can be had for $26K out here in California after the federal $7.5K + $5-7.5K local incentives.
Hello; I looked at a KIA last month. MSRP of just over $26K. EV's still cost too much for an inferior vehicle.
Are you going to refrain from buying what you wanted or refuse the incentive on principles. Follow up question: are you willing to take a polygraph?
Hello; I bought my first and current house at 62 years old. There was a first-time homeowners tax credit available. I took the credit. Do I have to do a Nobel sacrifice in order to question the wisdom of the EV and green energy agenda?

You do realize you can be banned for posting that on a Mustang forum, right?
Hello; I guess not being a 0 to 60 guy makes me an outlier. Comment got a chuckle from me tho.
 

sk47

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Many of these things are 5, 10, 15 years away, but they are coming.
Hello; Back to my laser example. Just as with the lasers I will wait until the EV has enough of the wonderful new features at a good cost. Best as i can figure is the EV switch will not continue without the very costly incentives and subsidies by various governments.

A thing is these programs are pushing the sale of currently configured EV's, not the imagined so much better ones to come. In fact, comments such as yours reenforce the idea it is better to keep buying ICE for some time to come. Why buy an EV now with all their known problems then be stuck will little to no trade in value when the better EV's come along? That has been part of the mantra on EV's for some time. Someday the batteries and range will be fixed, but please buy one now sort of spiel.
 

HoosierDaddy

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Hello; I bought my first and current house at 62 years old. There was a first-time homeowners tax credit available. I took the credit. Do I have to do a Nobel sacrifice in order to question the wisdom of the EV and green energy agenda?
Then we're even. You paid for my car. I paid for your house. Keep the change. :wink:
 

Balr14

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Hello; Back to my laser example. Just as with the lasers I will wait until the EV has enough of the wonderful new features at a good cost. Best as i can figure is the EV switch will not continue without the very costly incentives and subsidies by various governments.

A thing is these programs are pushing the sale of currently configured EV's, not the imagined so much better ones to come. In fact, comments such as yours reenforce the idea it is better to keep buying ICE for some time to come. Why buy an EV now with all their known problems then be stuck will little to no trade in value when the better EV's come along? That has been part of the mantra on EV's for some time. Someday the batteries and range will be fixed, but please buy one now sort of spiel.
I think it's all about conditioning. Realistically, most current EVs appeal to those with lots of money, who aren't concerned about resale value. But, there are a hell of lot more people thinking about EVs now than there were 10 years ago.

I wonder more about what will happen to the high performance ICE world when EVs can do everything better. I think it is likely you will see batteries 25% of the current size and weight, with 800 mile range, and compact motors in each wheel hub that can act independently of each other, to influence traction and handling. I'm not an advocate of EVs, but now that the genie is out of the bottle, there's no way you are going to put it back in.

Most of the improvements to ICE are due to increased usage of electronics and computers. The ICE itself is the limiting factor, so why not eliminate it?
 

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Freedom

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More about how the systems are designed than assembly costs, Watch the Munroe video above. It compares Tesla AC system with Ford Lightning. That was the sort of thing that got me excited. The fact that my Tesla is an EV was less important to me than how the rest of it made most ICE vehicles seem quaintly old fashion.

The lightning in that video is also an EV but the way it was engineered applies to their ICE vehicles. It's stunning. Legacy automakers will have to do the same kind of things with their ICE vehicles that Tesla is doing or become shells of their former selves.
Yup this is what impressed me and shows how outdated and inefficient legacy auto is. Which is why only Tesla is currently making money on EVs.

Like the cybertruck, steer by wire, 48V electrical system. Wow. Things Toyota was talking about for a long time.
 

HoosierDaddy

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I wonder more about what will happen to the high performance ICE world when EVs can do everything better.
I think its a matter of time and desire. Currently, all around performance buyers are too few to go after. A model 3 is already quicker than a GT 500 on the street. The only thing keeping it from being quicker in a 1/4 mile is wanting to keep the price and weight down and also keep a respectable 1/4 mile advantage for the S.

I watched a Youtube video from some guy who just posts 1/8 mile drag races with his M3P. A recent one he went up against a GT500 and had a lower ET 4 out of 5 times and the time he lost was a tiny. The GT500 driver was no ace and kept trying different settings and couldn't keep from spinning the wheels. No skill at all for a lower ET just stomp it. And the M3P has enough power to spin the tires but TC for an EV is much more effective because of the granularity of both the amount of power and the time it takes.

Car and Driver just did a 0-150-0 shoot out. But they didn't include an S Plaid and top Lucid (I think) because of things like the test car they got didn't have the right tires on it. But they ran them again on a different day with the right tires and they trounced the ICEs times.

Nothing preventing an EV maker slapping on a suspension equal or better than a GT/SS and enough battery cooling except opportunity costs, battery costs and so few of us that would pay the price. Those curves could cross sooner than we would like.
 

shogun32

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I'm waiting for ev makers to pull their heads out of xxx and just put in enough batt to make 130-180 honest miles. Or put another way, under 3800 lbs, less even better. And just flat out say EV are not for you people who don't have trivial charging access and don't do long distance unless you also like to dress up in period cowboy garb and accustomed to watering your horse.

Now that industry has standardized on ev chargers, maybe now they can settle on no more than 2 modular battery suitcases and the electric and cooling media interfaces.

Range is not the issue except naive people who you should ignore and punt down the road anyway.

And no, I still won't buy one. I'm saving the planet by converting as much sequestered Carbon into plant necessary CO2 gas so my cows and chickens can grow nice and fat eating grass or the bugs that like to eat grass. Grass is good. Meat tastes way better though.
 

Freedom

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I'm waiting for ev makers to pull their heads out of xxx and just put in enough batt to make 130-180 honest miles. Or put another way, under 3800 lbs, less even better. And just flat out say EV are not for you people who don't have trivial charging access and don't do long distance unless you also like to dress up in period cowboy garb and accustomed to watering your horse.

Now that industry has standardized on ev chargers, maybe now they can settle on no more than 2 modular battery suitcases and the electric and cooling media interfaces.

Range is not the issue except naive people who you should ignore and punt down the road anyway.

And no, I still won't buy one. I'm saving the planet by converting as much sequestered Carbon into plant necessary CO2 gas so my cows and chickens can grow nice and fat eating grass or the bugs that like to eat grass. Grass is good. Meat tastes way better though.
Most evs are capable of 200+ miles. The base range model 3 can do ~260 miles and weighs 3800-4000 lbs.
 

shogun32

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Most evs are capable of 200+ miles. The base range model 3 can do ~260 miles and weighs 3800-4000 lbs.
Then make the damn thing lighter. Shave 400 lbs. What's the range then? And more importantly the price?

Weight is evil. Range anxiety (it's not like it's 80 miles or less) is for numpties who weren't going to buy anyway.
 
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Freedom

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Then make the damn thing lighter. Shave 400 lbs. What's the range then? And more importantly the price?

Weight is evil. Range anxiety (it's not like it's 80 miles or less) is for numpties who weren't going to buy anyway.
$40K at 3850 pounds is cheaper than a mustang gt even before counting incentives.. and only about 50-100 pounds heavier. With all the weight underneath, the weight balance is perfect.
 

shogun32

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$40K at 3850 pounds is cheaper than a mustang gt even before counting incentives
Missing the point. Will it sell has nothing to do with it's prices vs mustang. Nobody buys mustang gt either. The point of ev is to be so vastly cheaper it makes up for all it's platform problems and tradeoffs.
 

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Missing the point. Will it sell has nothing to do with it's prices vs mustang. Nobody buys mustang gt either. The point of ev is to be so vastly cheaper it makes up for all it's platform problems and tradeoffs.
$7.5K federal rebate, along with local incentives. No oil change, long brake life span. Paying electricity is vastly cheaper than gasoline. How isn’t it vastly cheaper to a gas vehicle?

what trade offs are you referring too? Also why do you want an ev that only travels 180 miles and wait it under 3800 lbs? Evs have huge torque. My model 3 zips to 60 way faster than my mustang. You really don’t feel the weight.
 

shogun32

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You really don’t feel the weight
The road does. The infra does.

That $7500 is theft. People can't afford the 40k outlay. Nobody chooses an EV because a set of $60 brake pads last longer. Neither saving $25 on oil changes which is what at most 2x a year?

Just because your state is run by the biggest fools on the planet that necessitates eye watering gasoline prices doesn't advance the economic argument for ev for anyone else. It should mean you torch Sacramento with all your politicians locked in the state house.

EV is a suburban runabout for those who live in single family homes or townhouse with garage. It has no other economically sound use case. QED range over a reasonable base is immaterial.

150ish miles keeps the weight down and reduces the frequency of charge down to every 3 days or so. Mandatory nightly charge would be annoying to say theeast and also imply little flexibility to deviate from the norm.

The stated goal of Elon is ev to replace ice. And yet he keeps trying to sell expensive cars and Ford et. Al are also trying to sell gold plated ev to rich people instead of buildingthe provobial model T.

I'm well.aware even the sorriest ev can suck the paint off any Mustang trim. I do not value that feature.
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