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Silver Bullitt

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Generac makes great products. I have been pricing them to see how much it would cost to handle everything in my small house. I already have the electrician who will do the install. My gut feel is we will need it as weather gets more extreme.
I power my entire house (200 amp breaker) with this 22kw. $11K for generator, transfer switch and installation. It’s been a lifesaver on more than a few occasions.
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shogun32

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For anyone considering a powerwall or competitor but not wanting solar that $100k (or $80k for a 4 second model) no longer looks too expensive
And I thought a 400l natgas tank and $3000 genset would suffice for a good while...
 

Dave2013M3

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Connecticut just reversed their EV mandate. They realize there isn't a snowball chance in hell they can make the 2035 cutoff.
 

HoosierDaddy

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And I thought a 400l natgas tank and $3000 genset would suffice for a good while...
But that adds up to do for all 12 of your homes that you will never be staying in more than one at a time and have your Cybertruck with you. :wink:
 

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Freedom

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EVs are in high demand. The reason why GM and ford are slowing down its due to their price. Legacy auto and even the new EV makers do not know how to many an efficient EV vehicle. Not in terms of MPGe but vehicle to build/sell cost. If you look at Sandy Munro Youtube teardowns of Tesla vs legacy auto, there are huge inefficiencies. Ford is/was losing $30K per Lighting built. Rivian I think was losing $150K per vehicle built. Toyota CEO was shocked at how well the Model Y is built (not build quality lol but the design and engineering). One example is the Heating/AC system in the Model Y Vs MachE. The MachE has dozen of hoses and multiple components while the Model Y's heatpump style uses one singular block of metal.




Going on a tangent but, yeah we love our V8's but EVs work wonders as a daily driver. A Model 3 Can be had for $26K out here in California after the federal $7.5K + $5-7.5K local incentives.
 

sk47

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The reason why GM and ford are slowing down its due to their price. Legacy auto and even the new EV makers do not know how to many an efficient EV vehicle. Not in terms of MPGe but vehicle to build/sell cost.
Hello; Not sure if you have been following the various threads on this site which focus on EV's. I would think you would have noted a common thing mentioned about BEV's. That being the cost to buy. Your comment approached this from the other angle. That being the cost to make. Different side of the same coin. If a vehicle costs more to manufacture, then it has a higher selling price.

A sad part of this cost issue is the huge amount of incentives and subsidies associated with each EV. The cost of an average EV (around $50K) has been some thousands more than an ICE so far. But more disturbing are the behind the scenes costs the EV buyer does not pay directly. According to a link posted within the last month or so that extra cost per EV can be as much as $50,000.
Some is easy to see such as the
after the federal $7.5K + $5-7.5K local incentives.
This makes that $26,000 EV actually cost around $41,000 when the incentives are added. Those $7.5K +$5-$7.5K incentives comes out of your neighbors' pockets and the pockets of all of us who pay taxes. I understand you may be fine with that. I am not.

In the long term these incentives to buyers and subsidies cannot go on. For one thing in the idealized future 100% will have to buy an EV. At that point the Ponzi type scheme of incentives will hit all. You will not be able to fost off part of the cost onto others as we all will be the among the others.

Another likely reason is governments cannot continue to subsidize these EV programs. At some point the EV will have to stand on its own merits and be both practical to own and use but also financially sound. Any product which needs such massive incentives + subsidies is not a viable product.
 

sk47

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City announces massive β€˜off-limits’ zone for delivery vehicles: β€˜If we were given the opportunity to outlaw cars, we would’ (msn.com)

Hello; I hope to follow this. Ought to be a test case for EV trucks. Hope they stick to their guns and do not allow for exceptions for special events or circumstance. Say a heavy EV truck or bus breaks down in the zone and has to be towed or a fire breaks out. Will they prevent those nasty ICE firetrucks from entering the zone. But wait I glanced up at the link title just now. The ban may be only for delivery vehicles. Really useful tow and fire trucks may already be exempt?
 

HoosierDaddy

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Going on a tangent but, yeah we love our V8's but EVs work wonders as a daily driver. A Model 3 Can be had for $26K out here in California after the federal $7.5K + $5-7.5K local incentives.
Almost irresistible as a second car if you have an available 40 amp appliance outlet or own your home and can install one or install a 48 amp charger.

A model 3 Performance is cheaper with incentives than a Mustang GT and is 1/2 second quicker to 60 MPH than a GT500 with zero throttle skills. "Fuel" much cheaper than the stingiest econobox ICE. I pay 3 7 cents per KWH if charging in a 5 hour window that the car or charger is programmed to do automatically. Daily charging would average 1 hour. I only charge every 3 or 4 days.

Even if someone doesn't want to drive one, they should appreciate the wear and tear they save on your horn. They wake up the EV driver red light phone users with a beep when the car sees the light turns green.

edit: changed cost per KWH. Originally posted 3 which was how much I save over the next best rate during the day, not what I paid. We have 3 rates in different hours on week day in the Winter.
 
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sk47

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I pay 3 cents per KWH if charging in a 5 hour window that the car or charger is programmed to do automatically.
Hello; I will guess this is some "off-peak" electricity rate. Nice if you happen to have such. Pretty sure my area does not have off peak rates anymore. Gotta figure those special rates will go away with more folks doing the same as you do. Enjoy while it exists.

A model 3 Performance is cheaper with incentives than a Mustang GT and is 1/2 second quicker to 60 MPH than a GT500 with zero throttle skills.
Hello; Two things. You are welcome, I guess. I and all other taxpayers are helping get that model 3 performance cheaper. I am not voluntarily helping you get an EV cheaper, but such is happening.

The other thing is that half second quicker to 60 is perhaps the single area where an EV beats out an ICE. Due to the nature of an electric motor of course. The electric motor creates maximum torque at very low RPM's. The ICE needs some higher RPM's to make the torque. I do not worry about 0 to 60 much at all. For me 30 mph to 70 mph is the more important range of acceleration. Merging onto an interstate or passing on a two lane road.
I do get it, however. For those who favor quick acceleration for a stop the EV's can have an edge.
 

HoosierDaddy

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Hello; Not sure if you have been following the various threads on this site which focus on EV's. I would think you would have noted a common thing mentioned about BEV's. That being the cost to buy. Your comment approached this from the other angle. That being the cost to make. Different side of the same coin. If a vehicle costs more to manufacture, then it has a higher selling price.
Many/most People don't see the POTENTIAL plus side for ICE buyers.

The reason EVs cost more to make now is more than 100% due to current cost of batteries. Watch the video a few posts back. The engineering for the rest of the car is superior including cost to build compared to legacy makers. Why didn't the legacies do things like that already? They didn't have to as long as nobody else did. The legacies will have to adapt to this or end up only making vehicles for customers who have to have ICE for some reason. If they don't, EVs will become significantly cheaper than ICE made the way they are now.

Let's hope they don't let that happen. But they have put themselves in a bad place by watching Tesla do this and thinking they might be better off just conceding a small percent of customers than take on the difficult, risky and expensive (up front) costs to significantly bring down production costs for the non-powertrain parts of a vehicle. If they continue business as usual the day is coming when EVs will be CHEAPER to buy than ICE even without incentives.
 

HoosierDaddy

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Hello; I will guess this is some "off-peak" electricity rate. Nice if you happen to have such. Pretty sure my area does not have off peak rates anymore. Gotta figure those special rates will go away with more folks doing the same as you do. Enjoy while it exists.
There is going to be significant wasted capacity at some time of any day. Selling excess electricity dirt cheap reduces what the utility has to charge everyone during peak loads.

A mutually beneficial transaction is NOT a bad thing. Being annoyed at anyone paying for excess capacity makes about as much sense as being annoyed by people who buy things on Black Friday that you paid more for months before.

Hello; Two things. You are welcome, I guess. I and all other taxpayers are helping get that model 3 performance cheaper. I am not voluntarily helping you get an EV cheaper, but such is hapening.
Brilliant! Again, you seem as upset about what someone else is getting as much or more as about your elected officials sticking it to you.

I never asked you to pay for part of my car and am just as annoyed our elected officials are doing this. But maybe they are smarter than we are if they have us at each other's throats over what they did.

I would have bought the M3P without any incentive.

Let's play a what if. Pick something you want to buy and are willing to pay x dollars for it. Let's say idiots in office will pay for part of it with tax dollars.

Are you going to refrain from buying what you wanted or refuse the incentive on principles. Follow up question: are you willing to take a polygraph? :wink:

The other thing is that half second quicker to 60 is perhaps the single area where an EV beats out an ICE.
Uhhh, NO. You may have missed the numerous threads and posts mentioning time and cost of oil changes, brake jobs, etc.. Or the ones about how their car was abused, damaged or even totaled by incompetent or irresponsible service personal. Avoiding that is a plus. Brakes can even last the life of the car for milktoast drivers. Just to confirm, I intentionally went a full day of driving without ever touching the brake pedal. Was about as boring as many of my fellow road-mates but very easy to do. Just let off the gas and let the axles use their rotation to charge the battery AND stop the car. Or how about the ability to keep the interior at a set temp all the time or shortly before you get into it. Pretty nice in sub zero weather or my 125 degree summer days when my Mustang is 140 inside. Even with ICE remote start there are places not good to be running an ICE unattended. I could go on for pages. It adds up for MOST people.

But maybe you think if something doesn't matter to you its worthless to anyone. Our elected officials appreciate those beliefs.

The ICE needs some higher RPM's to make the torque. I do not worry about 0 to 60 much at all.
You do realize you can be banned for posting that on a Mustang forum, right?
 

sk47

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EVs cost more to make now is more than 100% due to current cost of batteries.
Hello; I believe you are correct about this. Firste let me cite my oft used example of the laser lights. I saw a ruby laser for the first time in a science lab of a university back in the 1970's. They were a fascinating but expensive toy at the time. Think a hologram was being shown using the laser. Skip ahead a decade or so and lasers are cheap enough to have in $49 CD or DVD players.
I do not doubt some advance can be had in battery tech. Might be some way to get rare resource material. Might be some more cost-effective way to pack the energy density into a smaller and lighter battery pack. Such game changing sorts of things have happened. A word of caution ought to be spoken. While we can fervently wish for such to happen, such may not happen.
Could be the tech slogs along with fractional improvements for decades.

The engineering for the rest of the car is superior including cost to build compared to legacy makers. Why didn't the legacies do things like that already?
Hello; I am going to guess this is a reference to the way Musk has embraced robot s in the assembly line??? I actually have only read little about this so may be way off. But to pose an answer to your question, labor and the inertia of massive infrastructure. Maybe throw in sticking with what works.

A bit of sour grapes from me on this point. I can see new mfg. techniques and EV's slowly overtaking and someday surpassing the ICE. Had it been allowed to happen organically without the mandates and incentives, such would be acceptable. I could even live with the incentive backed EV push if there was not a significant threat to the electric power grid associated with these policies. You do not jump from a well-functioning airplane figuring to perfect the parachute on the way down.

If they continue business as usual the day is coming when EVs will be CHEAPER to buy than ICE even without incentives.
Hello; Remains to be seen. Refer back to my first comment. Depends of the cost of the batteries.
 

Balr14

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The Chinese are already building excellent EVs for very low prices. New motor technology is ongoing as well. One Korean breakthrough eliminates mechanical coupling of the motors to the wheels by moving the motor to the wheel hub; much more efficient, better range and more power. Lots of advancements in battery technology too (sodium and solid state batteries) and new methods of extracting lithium from the Salton Sea, with little environmental impact and enough lithium for 350 million batteries.

Many of these things are 5, 10, 15 years away, but they are coming. American manufacturers will be left behind by the Asians, if they don't get their shit together. Mandates and incentives are an attempt to keep American car manufacturers relevant. Look what happened in the 70s and 80s when they basically gave the car market to the Japanese.
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