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shogun32

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The real idea is roof tops for the long list of reasons.
the real question is who is going to pay for it all. And with what money?

if rooftop solar was so compelling everyone would be doing it. Not only is there ~zero USA PV industry - we shipped all that and the pollution costs to China so we can pretend it doesn't exist, we can't manufacture any of it hear because we've dismantled our manufacturing and mining base. Only now are the Australians for example bothering to wean themselves off the China teat but it's going to take no less than 5 years.

By current math you can't get your money back on a personal solar installation for at least 15 years and those calculations also included fat "rebates" from the power grid which is a preposterous distortion of economics. Just because a lot of people might slap solar on their house does NOT mean you can turn off the big, ugly gen plant be it coal/gas/nuc. Your utility bill (per wh) will not only not go down, it'll go up because you still have to spend all the same money in staff and maint on an idled plant as you spend on one running full tilt.

I don't have the numbers for greenie-wienie datacenter and factory/retail installs and how long it takes them to get back their so-called investment. I doubt any of them make a damn worth of sense - it's all eco-preening.

What really chaps my ass is *I* get to pay for this exercise in stupidity. Tax rebates? I paid for that damn you. Tax breaks for Amazon/Wallmart etc to put solar cells on their roofs? Oh sure, the tax man takes money out of my wallet to give it to them. Pay your OWN damn way to your PV nirvana, thank you. Take it out of your executive compensation, take it out of your investors, take it out of your customer's hides. Leave the rest of us the hell out of your theft of the public purse and myriad scams.

I need to drive angry some more...
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Hack

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musk is not an engineer. SNIP
I'm not sure you understand the meaning of the word engineer. I get that you don't like some of the things Musk says. But he's a brilliant man, there's no doubt.
 

WildHorse

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Crowd Hunter

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Cars are meant to be driven..... If you want an investment, get a mutual fund. :rockon:
Or investment property. We bought a second house in 2017 for $335k and it's worth over $600k now. I wish I had bought five of them at the time. Just hope the bubble doesn't burst. There seems to be a shortage of housing and increased cost of building materials and inflation all pushing prices of houses up.
 

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jblue

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Oil in all its grades and fractured components is absolutely indispensable to all aspects of modern life. No oil, means no medicine, no medical sterility, no packaged food and a billion other things. You can not refine oil and NOT end up with gasoline.

The only people who believe oil can be removed from life are hopelessly stupid and ignorant. Or they just want to see you dead.
Thank you. Almost everything you touch and use every day is made from it. I just don't hear many people recognizing that this really is an issue. Government does not know business and should stay out of it.
 

jblue

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I’m shocked at what’s changed in the last year lol.
But I don’t see the actual work being done to implement a replacement of gas cars. The most populous state has a shortage of electricity now. Where exactly are they going to generate the power to charge vehicles? The best and brightest in DC can repeat the green new deal from now until they drop dead but they’ve already managed to piss off most of the country and that’s before telling them they can’t fill their gas tanks. I have no doubt it will happen eventually. But the realities of energy production and the economy as a whole are in the way and likely will be for some time.
And then the government will want to control you and your car, and turn it on and off as they please. This whole energy issue brought upon our country is about control. Our country was founded upon with energy, and our cars are our mobility. I had read somewhere, someone asked Elon Musk to turn off his Tesla's in Russia, and he said no. Don't know if that's true or not, but I wouldn't put it past some nutty green politician to ask that.
 

mrbillwot

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I need to drive angry some more...
Yeah, seems its not working as a release.

I'd show you solar beating carbon costs & latest PV's developments approaching 40-50% efficiency but like the non Li-ION batteries I'm not sure you want to hear anything forward looking rather than past examples. I don't know who the "damn you" is for but I'm a technologist and that's in conflict with my not liking change but at some point new ideas can be compelling and that point has been increasing not decreasingly close enough to be now....just like replacing the good enough horse with a carbon fueled car was for growth at one point. You said "Just because a lot of people might slap solar on their house does NOT mean you can turn off the big, ugly gen plant be it coal/gas/nuc" and that's a strawman. Everyone looking seriously at roof top PV's knows the sun sets so its not some gotcha. They also know peak loads & rolling blackouts are worse mid day and during the summer as are cooling costs. Those are peak energy cost hours and night is low demand. In the North East we pay more than most of the country for energy and everything else so its not that hard to do the math and say yeah, I'll take nearly free power or heating cooling or both even if its shorter seasons in the north and the amortization is over 10-15 years (shortens with every year and panel efficiency gain). ALL considered no one is yanking the cord on coal or gas before viable infrastructure to supplement night hours is in place so to suggest that's even on the table is not to be taken seriously. Options from point of load storage is possible today to even mass scale deep geothermal is being looked at to provide night hour capacity at a regional scale. We're smart, or can be IF we try, and we increasingly not decreasingly have compelling options that did not exist 5-10 years ago. You also said "if rooftop solar was so compelling everyone would be doing it" good thing everybody doing something isn't the only metric we judge necessary change by....and this is necessary, we're only debating how soon we can do it not not if we should.
 

Mr. Maboomba

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Thank you. Almost everything you touch and use every day is made from it. I just don't hear many people recognizing that this really is an issue. Government does not know business and should stay out of it.
Actually, it's pretty clear to me that government policy does recognize how important the scarce resource of oil is. The less of it we burn, the more of it we will have to make things with. This isn't a justification that gets a lot of attention because people will just say "but we have enough for 400 years and then everyone after that can figure out how to survive then," but it is part of the logic for reducing consumption and creating new solutions.

When did we all get so opposed to innovation anyway? The American economy is built on innovation. We should be excited to drive energy innovation and benefit from the trillions of dollars that will be spent globally on shifting away from fossil fuels.
 

mrbillwot

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Our country was founded upon with energy,
My direct ancestor fought for General Washington - the only energy we "were founded" on was whale oil, wood, coal, and black powder for emphasis. As for all this government control talk - how much do you think the oil industry is some US born symbol of independent US patriotism? Lets get real - most are owned by multi-national corporations who don't give a damn who they sell to or what American blood is spilled to protect it. When I throttle my V8's or spool up my turbos I'm not fooling myself into thinking its anything other than me selfishly doing for me, period. It doesn't change that this is short term and that the auto industry decided so...they did that well before any government requirement to dethrone ICE propulsion.
 

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Crowd Hunter

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Electric vehicles currently use our roads for free. Roads are paid for by state and federal gas taxes that we pay every time we fill up our tank. Drivers of electric cars don't use gas, so consequently, they do not pay for the roads to be built or repaired. When people talk about how much cheaper electric vehicles are to operate, they fail to mention the fact that the days are numbered that these people get a free pass. You never hear about that when they promote EVs.
 

Mr. Maboomba

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Don’t worry… usage (mileage) based registration fees are coming soon. Don’t think gas taxes will go away in exchange.
 

Crowd Hunter

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Don’t worry… usage (mileage) based registration fees are coming soon. Don’t think gas taxes will go away in exchange.
Right! They are holding off to get as many people to buy in as possible. Notice they are not mentioning that now. It's a mad rush to get people to switch, then they will drop that bomb on them.

Furthermore, I would rather pay based on the number of miles I drive than a flat rate when I register my car. I drive about 75 miles a week or 4,000 miles a year. I only pay tax on the gas I use. If my car gets 20 mpg, then I use 200 gallons a year. If my state charges 35 cents per gallon, then I pay $70 a year for the roads, spread across 52 weeks. Contrast that with someone who drives a huge 4wd pickup 15,000 miles a year. If he gets 15 mpg, then he uses 1,000 gallons, and his share of the road tax is $350. The more a person uses the roads, the more he has to pay for the roads. I like that method and feel like states are going to have to adopt a method to charge people according to the number of miles they drive.
 

Jeffsmith

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EVERY solar/wind installation has to be backed up with RELIABLE power source. So the cost/MW MUST include the natgas power supply you have to keep running, even if at idle. X+Y > Y every day and every time. Greenies can't do basic 1st grade math.

Nuclear (Thorium) is the obvious answer to power to the people, but GE esp and FR are decommissioning their nuc power plants left right and center. And now they're stuck with nat gas fueled by their friendly Ruskie neighbors. Talk about the height of stupidity and preening-to-be-green.

When wind/solar goes to zero at any time, you have to have enough slack in the system with INSTANT response or you suffer brown/black outs. Now maybe society at large voted and agreed to this tradeoff. But did they? Or were they LIED to?

Just because "105% on the reactor possible, not recommended." "Go to 105% power" doesn't mean it'll end well.

EVERY solar/wind installation has to be backed up with RELIABLE power source. So the cost/MW MUST include the natgas power supply you have to keep running, even if at idle. X+Y > Y every day and every time. Greenies can't do basic 1st grade math.

Nuclear (Thorium) is the obvious answer to power to the people, but GE esp and FR are decommissioning their nuc power plants left right and center. And now they're stuck with nat gas fueled by their friendly Ruskie neighbors. Talk about the height of stupidity and preening-to-be-green.

When wind/solar goes to zero at any time, you have to have enough slack in the system with INSTANT response or you suffer brown/black outs. Now maybe society at large voted and agreed to this tradeoff. But did they? Or were they LIED to?

Just because "105% on the reactor possible, not recommended." "Go to 105% power" doesn't mean it'll end well.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/55/bc/2555bc883b65ab5f6abc11c6a22c9e71.jpg

FAC2E070-4857-4AFD-9A9A-4803C1F08855.jpeg
 

dpAtlanta

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Since this thread turned so political… I have an idea for a bumper sticker that would sell to about half the population. I’m working on the wording for the other half because I love Capitalism.

Here goes:
“I would love to shove my carbon footprint up your environmental ass.”

Still working on the opposite viewpoint puke statement.
Stay tuned…!

Shoving an environmental ass up a carbon footprint doesn’t work.
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