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mrbillwot

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back then they hadn't invented NIMBY, OSHA, EPA yet, or for that matter stupidity. Ignorance, yes but stupidity is an invention of modern man and arises from mis-education.
Ignoring the near future has never been wise.
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mrbillwot

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musk is not an engineer.
I am...and a EE specifically & one who's been watching PV development since 82. I see nothing wrong with his math....and it is math not emotion. Just becuase Musk has ADD & an unchecked ego doesn't make him wrong. As for the Li-ion fire challenge - who says it needs to be Li-ion to provide reliable grid power? No one who's studied it. Case in point practically in my back yard this MIT spinoff shows enormous promise: https://ambri.com/
 

shogun32

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Ignoring the near future has never been wise.
except 'scientific pronouncements' like flying cars in 20 years have proven to be fantastically wrong despite being re-issued year after year after year by very serious engineers with multiple letter after their names. Ditto battery efficiency. I'll grant you EV will increase for a bit. But then we'll wizen the hell up and use something else.

I hardly think LiOn is the durable future, but it would be downright HELPFUL if the users and inventors of the current technology would bloody well figure out how not to burn whole houses, multi-block long warehouses, parking garages, and sink ships because their DAMN BATTERY can't be put the heck out!!

I can't point to a citation off the top of my head but it eviscerated his claims on acreage and yields. But whatever. I reckon we'll have di-lithium power cells :) before we hit 50% EV. All these fleets buying EV to be cool and eco-preen about zero carbon will in 10 years have papers written in business schools about how stupid they were, and how it didn't do a damn thing about CO2 and caused enormous property damage and loss.

I'll step outside and power up my time machine...
 
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Ewheels

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For the nerds out there, I did the math on the required square miles of solar panels to meet 2020 USA energy consumption requirements.
400sqft of solar panel = 350-850 kWh per month
2020 US energy consumption = 3.8T kWh

-> 5,000 to 13,000 square miles of solar panels.
Nebraska = 77,000 square miles
 

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Strokerswild

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Perfect, Nebraska would be a great place to cover with solar panels.
 

theruleslawyer

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With the prices of EV's now, I can't see the sales number as high as you predict.
Now, sure. Mid decade EVs are predicted to approach price parity without rebates. By the end of the decade they will be cheaper. Battery prices continue to fall and otherwise they are much simpler plaforms. TBH it’s mostly a question of when they will be cheaper, not if.
 

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Perfect, Nebraska would be a great place to cover with solar panels.
if you don't want to eat. Nebraska gets a hell of a lot of snow. Peak panel efficiency is only about 6 hrs/day and that applies to summer. Even if the panel is clean the output during winter is considerably less during those same peak hours.

AZ/CA/NV would be a better location.

we should be looking at harnessing more than the pitiful 22% of solar radiation of 126w/sqft. Though mirrors have the same 'only works when clean' problem. On that front PV doesn't have to be aimed to be useful.

But anyhow I need to go outside and burn those precious hydrocarbons and inject as much CO2 into the afmosphere as I can so trees and flowers have plenty of food. The more grass, the more cattle and the more STEAK for me!
 
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hotjava66

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Imagine the time it would take to build and install 13000 SQUARE MILES of solar panels, not to mention the cost. Or the amount of various materials including rare earth elements you need to mine to create a battery 1 mile square. And all of those have a finite lifespan and need to be replaced periodically. Bottom line is it will take more than 10 or 20 years to get there. No problem with thinking big but it doesn’t happen overnight. It took a decade for us to get a couple of people to the moon…

So I’m curious from the EE standpoint, can you run the calculations quick on 276 million vehicles with 50kwh batteries charging 25-50% each day over a 12 hour period
 

mrbillwot

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except 'scientific pronouncements' like flying cars in 20 years have proven to be fantastically wrong despite being re-issued year after year after year by very serious engineers with multiple letter after their names. Ditto battery efficiency.
Flying cars was never more than Popular Science pronouncements much like jet packs, escalator sidewalks, and moon base vacations. That is nothing at all like the international auto industry converting from ICE power plants en masse & autonomous driving in a close second. That is a fact. You may not like it or believe in it but then again neither did those vested in the notion that horses were irreplaceable. This is coming fast and its not a short term solution. We'll have our GT350's etc but it will be along side massive changes for non enthusiast's choices...many of which will be driverless. Hard to accept but real. Again wrt to the grid why ignore the non Li-ion storage being pursued? Just to argue about some massive fire potential for Li-ions that are only grouped in limited qtys? Dams can burst, transported & stored refinery products can leak, coal slag runoff toxifies ground water, and fission nuke waste is an endless burden....we DO come up with better ideas and need to.
 

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Fastoldman

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Aw cmon guys quit picking on little old Nebraska, especially since it's actually more suitable for wind power with the highest consistent wind average in the US. Happens to be the #1 Beef State in the US , has the lowest unemployment, and tons of corn ( for ethanol ) to supplement petroleum. Dang, it almost sounds perfect, it has enough resources to make both sides of the argument happy, ha.

PS - I threw the beef in there because EV or V8 who doesn't like a juicy steak, hehe!
 
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mrbillwot

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Imagine the time it would take to build and install 13000 SQUARE MILES of solar panels, not to mention the cost. Or the amount of various materials including rare earth elements you need to mine to create a battery 1 mile square. And all of those have a finite lifespan and need to be replaced periodically.
Imagine you're comparing all that "rare earth elements" hunting & mining for oil...just a reminder that's the as deep single use dirty alternative. Our ICE engines are a product of mined material too some rare some not - most recyclable just like a EV except not the 4x inefficiency burned up.

No one would make a 1 square mile battery - power is distributed whatever the ultimate scale needed - just like there isn't one big oil refinery & storage tank today.

So I’m curious from the EE standpoint, can you run the calculations quick on 276 million vehicles with 50kwh batteries charging 25-50% each day over a 12 hour period
50% every day? I calculate that maximum is 2/3 of a gallon of gas to power each of your 275M vehicles each day. If only we got away with 18 days of driving per tank. And wrt EV's a modern roof top PV array can easily provide that directly with little transmission loss and leftovers for heat pumps/ac.

Naysaying isn't going to change whats coming soon... in the mean time its smiles per gallon.
 
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Mr. Maboomba

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Naysaying isn't going to change whats coming soon... in the mean time its smiles per gallon.
Yep, change is coming.

For now, I'm enjoying 3 V8s (a NA one in my GT350, a twin-turbo one in my X5, and a marine one in my Yamaha F350 outboard). Or I was until premium gas reached $7/gallon where I live......
 

mrbillwot

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-> 5,000 to 13,000 square miles of solar panels.
Nebraska = 77,000 square miles
And for what its worth that's what Musk argued with his "roughly" 10,000 square miles.

He also offered “We’ll need to be a combination of utility-scale solar and rooftop solar, combined with wind, geothermal, hydro, probably some nuclear for a while, in order to transition to a sustainable situation,”.

He can often be a jackass this wasn't one of those times. Its logical and the math is basic.
Nebraska was an example to show scale (he literally put a black square to represent if (big IF) this were all concentrated in one spot in NE or TX how relatively small it is in contrast to the problem and already large scale of energy discovery and production. The real idea is roof tops for the long list of reasons.
 

mrbillwot

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Yep, change is coming.

For now, I'm enjoying 3 V8s (a NA one in my GT350, a twin-turbo one in my X5, and a marine one in my Yamaha F350 outboard). Or I was until premium gas reached $7/gallon where I live......
I hear ya...I'm burning through $75 every 4 days and thats not even counting the Voodoo coming out to play ; )
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