Do you want to see an AWD Mustang? Is it still a Mustang?

[sigintel]

Ford existed way before Mustang.

I believe Ford can and should create new icons. I understand drawing on heritage, but feel it can be excessive and defeatist if it implies Ford is dead/dying/incapable of producing any revolutionary design. I understand enough wrong turns could leave Fords existence on razor thin ice.

I pray Ford (re)commits a design study on extending the S550 2015 GT, GT350, GT500 language to an entire product lineup.

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/

Take the mustang as the analog of the 911.
If Porsche can still sell the 718 variants at the same time as the 911, why cant Ford do the same?

Why cant I get a downscaled budget S550 designed to host a 2.x turbo 4 without it carrying all the extra weight needed to host a V8?

I get that Ford wont build a Miata competitor due to existing relationships, but how bout right between S550 and miata curb weights?

MachE is brilliant. Looking forward to seeing more more more more please. I have no problem comparing the MachE to the Panamera Turismo.

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[Bikeman315]

Ford existed way before Mustang.

I believe Ford can and should create new icons. I understand drawing on heritage, but feel it can be excessive and defeatist if it implies Ford is dead/dying/incapable of producing any revolutionary design. I understand enough wrong turns could leave Fords existence on razor thin ice.

I pray Ford (re)commits a design study on extending the S550 2015 GT, GT350, GT500 language to an entire product lineup.

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/

Take the mustang as the analog of the 911.
If Porsche can still sell the 718 variants at the same time as the 911, why cant Ford do the same?

Why cant I get a downscaled budget S550 designed to host a 2.x turbo 4 without it carrying all the extra weight needed to host a V8?

I get that Ford wont build a Miata competitor due to existing relationships, but how bout right between S550 and miata curb weights?

MachE is brilliant. Looking forward to seeing more more more more please. I have no problem comparing the MachE to the Panamera Turismo.

There is one teeny tiny fact that would prevent any of what you recommended from happening. Americans are not buying cars. They certainly are not buying two door coupes. Will there be more Mustang’s? Yes, of course, but they are not going to be what you are looking for.

By the way you cannot create an icon. All you can do is create a product good enough that the consumer continues to buy year after year. Other than the Mustang and the “F” series trucks what other icon has Ford produced over the past sixty years.

 

[shogun32]

I think Explorer probably counts as an icon and maybe Bronco but the latter if greatly overshadowed by Jeep.

 

[sigintel]

There is one teeny tiny fact that would prevent any of what you recommended from happening. Americans are not buying cars. They certainly are not buying two door coupes. Will there be more Mustang’s? Yes, of course, but they are not going to be what you are looking for.

By the way you cannot create an icon. All you can do is create a product good enough that the consumer continues to buy year after year. Other than the Mustang and the “F” series trucks what other icon has Ford produced over the past sixty years.

"...cannot create an icon" .... uhhh I disagree. Ford can and will create an Icon. BRONCO FTW.
The Bronco styling across multiple chassis is brilliant and winning design and engineering.

Killing a winning design simply to cannibalize the sales to replace it with another design specced to replace it sounds like burning money. Its like spending money to compete with yourself.
Icon: Volkswagen Beetle 1950-2002.
Icon rehash: 1997-2011
Boring Icon rehash: A5 Beetle 2011-2019
Now go drive a 1970 and 2010 Beetle back to back.... lot to learn there...

A US car sales decrease due to economy downturn is NOT a reason to stop seeking competitive advantage.
So Ford design and engineering should just quit and fold up shop and let the company fail due to an economic downturn?!!
HEELLLLL NNAWWW!!
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/usa-auto-industry-total-sales-figures/
Americans will buy cars again. Ford will fight for every sale. Design must move forward and the risk of failure must be accepted.
If you do not try, you might not fail, but you sure as hell wont win.


There will be more Mustangs and they will be what I am looking for: epic styling on multiple chassis. I want MachE, S550, S650, and at least 1 other from the design studies.
Ford can bring both a larger 4 door XUV stang and smaller stang to market.
They can do this by sprinkling a ton of FUN FUN FUN FUN and understanding that Americans will buy FUN styling that sticks out. (seen any aggressive looking Camry's on dealer lots lately?)

Dunno if Ford engineering and design need additional risky work environments where engineers and designers are 'triggered' and internally driven and obsessed?
They need to accept failures and move forward to come up with winning designs to save their lives and careers. If they dont feel this way, ... doh...

EcoFUN Design study: using all the exact parts from the Ecosport: design a comically over emphasized Ecosport Stang. Scaled up childrens bathtub toy immediately recognizable by a 4 year old on the street.

Miata Design study: Deconstruct the starboard side of a Miata (plasma cutters allowed). Bathroom scales: grab parts as removed and hop on the scale, subtract body weight. Now design mustang styled Miata and aim for 35% of the weight between Miata and Mustang. By the time FEA and crash envelope work are done, the last 15% will get added to get us about 50% between Miata and Mustang.

 

[Bikeman315]

"...cannot create an icon" .... uhhh I disagree. Ford can and will create an Icon. BRONCO FTW.

As shogun32 said, and I agree, the Bronco is an icon. But it didn't start that way. The Mustang did not start out as an icon, it became one.

A US car sales decrease due to economy downturn is NOT a reason to stop seeking competitive advantage.

The economic downturn is not the reason for a decrease in car sales. The CUV/SUV is the reason.

Americans will buy cars again. Ford will fight for every sale.

Do not see this happening any time soon. Right now Ford has two cars for sale in the American market. Do not expect more anytime soon.

As far as the rest of it, in my heart I totally agree with you. But my head, especially my business head, knows that there is a much better chance of hell freezing over before we see the Mustangs you're wishing for.[/QUOTE]

 

[Twin Turbo]

Mach E is what happens when you think you can create an icon. Take a totally unrelated product and give it an iconic badge and name. Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. Mustang wasn't an icon in 1964 when it was launched, but it soon became one with epic sales of over 1 million in 18 months. It became an icon because its success created a whole new market segment.It's still an icon 56 years later because it's stayed true to its roots. It was a risk.....a big risk that paid off.

I'd be more impressed with Mach E if Ford had given it its own unique identity. It's own unique name. As it is it tries to be cool by tugging at the coat tale of a car that's earned it's reputation over 56 years.

Unfortunately, Ford are no longer risk takers. They follow trends. I can understand that as they have shareholders to appease.

I still don't understand why you think S550 and S650 should be produced side by side though. Why would anyone buy the older design......unless it was considerably cheaper (which likely wouldn't happen). S650 will be the new and improved Mustang. If for any reason you don't like it, you buy a lightly used S550.

 

[shogun32]

So Ford design and engineering should just quit and fold up shop and let the company fail

wouldn't hurt. Whatever crop of morons they have in suspension and chassis mount design need to be publicly flogged. I don't know what's gone wrong with Engineering over there - is the American trained engineer really that bad these days? Or did they not bother to learn the material? Are there no old guys left who can spot craptastic design just by looking at it?

Bronco from however many decades ago (saw one in The Eiger Sanction with Clint Eastwood a couple nights ago) vs the relaunch into a very crowded and VERY well established competitor (Jeep) will probably not work. Oh sure, people old enough to have romantic memories of the original and who 'gotta buy Ford' will buy some, but do you honestly think it'll make a serious dent in Jeep's unit sales? With Ford's continuing problems with design and execution? Forget Ford Tough, I'd like some actual semblance of "Quality is job #1" for a change. Sure, compared to the unmitigated crap that was Detroit in the 80/90's and so forth, a 2015+ Ford is vastly improved. Except the competition was moving as fast or faster than Ford's recalcitrant workforce will tolerate.

Ford won't ever sell another regular car again. And frankly their CUV lineup will get trimmed by 3 models minimum. Ford F-series aside are at best #metoo and far too expensive compared to what the Koreans can churn out.

Ford can bring both a larger 4 door XUV stang and smaller stang to market.

between the Miata/Mazda3, the Toyota 86, and Supra, that market is pretty much all spoken for. If you want 'stang XUV' just look at how the BMW X6 looks for how not to do it even if it goes like stink. If the Ford incarnation of the X5/6 is within 10 large of a BMW, who would be dumb enough to buy the Ford?

I expect Ford will become a wholly owned subsidiary of VW auto group. Or it gets sold to a conglomerate of Asian investors and gutted of all US manufacturing except perhaps the engine plants.

 

[sigintel]

. If the Ford incarnation of the X5/6 is within 10 large of a BMW, who would be dumb enough to buy the Ford?

Lol.. I do have an X5M in the garage next to my 2018 GT. And a 2GR-FE RAV4....
Mustangs are great when they are cheap and motors are cheap and they are easy to work on.
Mustang = SnapTite models for adults.

When I previously used the noun "cars" I meant all vehicles... but yea, SUV driving position is superior visibility and better for crashing into other SUVs... Most people want an SUV over a car for interior space and better driving position.

Ford doesn't calculate the loss of customers due to quality and design failures such as air conditioning systems. Soo much money and lost customer goodwill over the 2015+ AC failures.
Just seems like about the time they get the quality nailed down on the S550 chassis, they start over. Just prey Ford doesn't forget how to make a simple AC system on the new S650.

That's just the issue. What exactly is "Improved"on the S650? What technology are they going to implement?
The excess structural weight of the S550 gonna get fixed? 400# subframes next? Massive overlapping seams for modulus gradient issues? 3800# "performance" vehicle.... S650 = 4200#?

Just think S650 should be so radically different in weight to justify it coexisting with S550.
Just like 911 and 718 chassis...

The S550 chassis is so overbuilt, we see 1000 - 1300+ hp street cars without cages.
Imagine how much lighter it would be -1000#. Chassis might flex above 600lbft torque, but it would rock the road course with a 3.x liter turbo at 450hp

 

[Bikeman315]

Ford doesn't calculate the loss of customers due to quality and design failures such as air conditioning systems. Soo much money and lost customer goodwill over the 2015+ AC failures.
Just seems like about the time they get the quality nailed down on the S550 chassis, they start over. Just prey Ford doesn't forget how to make a simple AC system on the new S650.

The A/C issues were predominately on the 15-16's. Since then they have been fine. The number of customers Ford may have lost to this issue wouldn't even register to them. Now it shouldn't have happened but I do not think Ford really suffered for it. Far bigger issues have occured and Ford has weathered them all.

That's just the issue. What exactly is "Improved"on the S650? What technology are they going to implement?
The excess structural weight of the S550 gonna get fixed? 400# subframes next? Massive overlapping seams for modulus gradient issues? 3800# "performance" vehicle.... S650 = 4200#?

We really do not know anything about the S650 yet other than it will still be on the S550 platform. Do not expect any huge changes. If that is going to happen, and I doubt that to, it will be on the S750.

Just think S650 should be so radically different in weight to justify it coexisting with S550.
Just like 911 and 718 chassis...

The S550 and S650 will not be sold at the same time. Where did you hear/see this? And your analogy for the Porsche's doesn't really work. They are two different cars.

 

[sigintel]

Sounds like you clearly understand the analogy:
718 is different lighter chassis vs 911.

Thats the point. I want a lighter S550 chassis for a 400hp turbo 4 w mustang styling. If you havent yet, please go drive a Civic type R and M2 Performance.

Especially if the S650 is lincoln AWD drivetrain w S550 tank chassis, 4000# monster. We will need massive tire budgets to track and mod it to 1200 hp. Lol.

 

[Balr14]

This is an interesting thread on an academic level. Maybe when a Mustang becomes all electric you could see AWD. Otherwise it isn't going to happen. Nor will a two seater, Nor will it weigh less.

Sounds like you clearly understand the analogy:
718 is different lighter chassis vs 911.

Thats the point. I want a lighter S550 chassis for a 400hp turbo 4 w mustang styling. If you havent yet, please go drive a Civic type R and M2 Performance.

Especially if the S650 is lincoln AWD drivetrain w S550 tank chassis, 4000# monster. We will need massive tire budgets to track and mod it to 1200 hp. Lol.

Your odds of getting such a Mustang are about the same as you riding naked on horseback, in downtown Detroit during rush hour, and getting hit by a comet.

 

[Norm Peterson]

"...cannot create an icon" .... uhhh I disagree. Ford can and will create an Icon. BRONCO FTW.
The Bronco styling across multiple chassis is brilliant and winning design and engineering.

Ford can hope they're creating a new icon, but only time will tell if they did. I imagine Ford had big hopes for the Edsel, too. The Bronco will probably end up somewhere in between the Edsel and the Mustang as far as iconic status is concerned.

Ford can bring both a larger 4 door XUV stang and smaller stang to market.
They can do this by sprinkling a ton of FUN FUN FUN FUN and understanding that Americans will buy FUN styling that sticks out. (seen any aggressive looking Camry's on dealer lots lately?)

I'm confused here. Americans will buy SUVs and CUVs seemingly almost without limit, and that's certainly not because of fun styling.


As a side comment to something in another post, chair-like seating may be good for passenger seating and outward vision, but it's not really good for driving (fine modulation at the pedals in particular). Then again, I imagine that's part of why the adaptive part of adaptive cruise control has become popular, and one more thing quietly working against manual transmissions.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

I imagine that's part of why the adaptive part of adaptive cruise control has become popular

naw, that's all about protecting road users from the STUPID inattention that is RIFE on American roads by fellow "drivers", and a feature to charge obscene amounts for (1000% markup) and a sop to the insurance industry and gov't regulators while they're at it.

 

[Norm Peterson]

naw, that's all about protecting road users from the STUPID inattention that is RIFE on American roads by fellow "drivers", and a feature to charge obscene amounts for (1000% markup) and a sop to the insurance industry and gov't regulators while they're at it.

Of course.

But I'm thinking that a more upright seating posture involves shifting ankle and foot orientations away from what's natural (i.e. when walking). That people will use ACC more often (and the dumb CC before it) when comfort over longer periods of time is involved.


Norm

 

[oneheadlite]

Yes and Yes.

If Ford hung a Mustang emblem on a covered wagon;
......it would be a Mustang...........

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