Dear Ford, I want my 895 dollars back.

Discussion in 'Mustang S550 General Forums' started by Briebee72, Oct 22, 2019.

  1. OP
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    Briebee72

    Briebee72 Well-Known Member

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    Wow thanks so much. I know what im doing tomorrow.
     
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  2. Condor1970

    Condor1970 Well-Known Member

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    I dunno know bout you guys, but I think the best decision I made, was to get the base model with Sync-1, and do a Pioneer D-Series speaker upgrade, front and rear. It cost a good $360, but they are far superior in quality than anything sold stock. Then, leveling the EQ in Forscan made everything come alive. Once I installed the new Phoenix PX6 head unit, the music sounds even slightly better, with better loudness on the low end. I honestly don't even need a sub-woofer with these speakers, because unlike the JL Audio and Focal speakers, the Pioneers have a bottom end of 30 Hz. It's quite impressive for just a set of 6.5's.
     
  3. Pero

    Pero Well-Known Member

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    #93 Pero, Jan 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
    My 2019 GT has B&O system with following fuses (from User Manual):

    Fuse Number ----------- Rating ----------------- Function
    F05 ........................................ 20A ................................ Subwoofer Amp
    F27 ........................................ 30A ................................ Amp
    F33......................................... 20A ................................ Audio Head unit

    Amps together has 50A, which in theory can supply max 600W.
    I don't know if F33 can add something to end sum (if Head unit would have it's own amp to power some smaller speakers directly)?
    Why then Ford declared B&O system as 1000W ?
     
  4. Mikthehun1

    Mikthehun1 Well-Known Member

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    They could be playing the peak vs RMS game.
     
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  5. Pero

    Pero Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that could be the case.
    Nowhere in the documentation is written which type of "wattage" is addressed.
     
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  6. CrashOverride

    CrashOverride Well-Known Member

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    I don't know what chips they use internally, but I know that the amp used in my mopar head unit has a ST TDA-7563 chip, which is a class AB amp. This is an older head unit, so I would presume than the BO amp is either a class D or T which is more efficient, perhaps as high as 90%. But class AB amps are up to about 65% efficient according to what I've read. So simply taking a fuse value and multiplying it to 14.4v (Oft used to inflate numbers), defines what some may say the amp is capable of. Not true. While there are a million ways to rate power (1% THD, 1kHz, 20-20kHz, up to clipping, etc...) and you can rate it at 12v, 12v nominal, and others.

    To give them the best fighting chance, let's use 14.4v and 90% for a Class D amp.

    Subwoofer Amp = 20A x 14.4v x 90% = 259 watts. Now you're not supposed to drive the fuse at 100%, so let's use 75% as Littelfuse recommends for 25C ambient temp. This means the amp shouldn't be able to put out more than 194 watts.

    Doing the same math for the main amp = 30A x 14.4v x 90% efficiency x 75% thermal rating = 292 watts.

    The head unit shouldn't be added because presumably all channels will be powered through the amps. But, let's suppose that it is entirely an amp, and that every drop of current is used to amplify even more speakers. (We know this is impossible because of the tuner, other sound shaping stuff, motors and so on)

    20A x 14.4 x 90% x 75% = again, 194 watts.

    194 + 292 + 194 = 874 watts. Now this is the absolute best case scenario, not knowing the actual efficiency. And this is using the headunit as an amp, which is probably not the case. So I would argue it is really only putting out 194+292 = 486 watts.

    Cross check. Let's use a CEA compliant amp as an example.

    Alpine S-A60M (1x600w RMS @ 2 Ohm) has two 30A fuses. Yeah, but it's a monoblock amp - not the same comparison.

    Let's try a multichannel amp. JL Audio XD600/6v2 is a 6-channel amp that puts out 6x100w RMA @ 2 Ohms. I couldn't find if this is CEA compliant or not, but JL audio is one of the better manufacturers out there and I'd trust it. Also, it is specifically noted as a class D amp. It is unfused, but a 50-amp fuse is recommended.

    Note that the numbers are driving the amps as hard as possible with 2-ohm loads. If you drive them at 4 ohms, the power levels are quite a bit less, often halved.

    So unless Ford is pulling power out of another fuse, your 1000w system is likely a 500w system.

    But, it's entirely legal to use peak power and measure the half second burst provided by the caps in the amps and sure, you will get 1000w. Heck, you might get 5000w if the measurement is small enough.

    Why did Ford do it? People don't know not to trust ratings. Most people don't realize that almost any rating, no matter what it is, has modifiers....

    Decibels? At what distance?
    Amps? At what temperature?
    Torque? At what RPM, at what temp/humidity, dressed or not, octane, flywheel or drivewheel
    Brightness? Candlepower, Lux, Lumens?
    Pressure? At what head? and what volume? and what viscosity?
    Viscosity? At what temperature
     
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  7. Pero

    Pero Well-Known Member

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    Very good elaboration, CrashOverride. Thank you.
    I can agree with you. Ratings can be presented in various ways, considering this and disregarding that.
    And I know that wattage means nothing in high-end audio.
    Good tube A class 20W amp can sound gorgeous with compatible and efficient (high sensitive) speakers.

    I would be very surprised if B&O will not use one of class D ICEpower amp modules. This means close to 90% efficiency.

    Agree. I suppose head unit includes only pre-amp section.
     
  8. CrashOverride

    CrashOverride Well-Known Member

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    10000% agree. I love the warm sound of tube amps. I play guitar and I have a small Pignose G40v (All tube -- 12AX7 and 6V6's) and it really sounds good. But even more than that, using a tube amp to play back pre-recorded music is fantastic. I will say with regard to playing into a tube amp vs a solid state amp, the tube amp sounds way louder for the same number of watts.

    I also don't think people realize just how little power is used most of the time due to the logarithmic way that power and loudness are correlated. Even with some ~88 db/1w/1m speakers, it only takes 16w of power to hit 100db, and that's louder than a lawnmower. Of course having a lot of extra power for dynamic bursts of music (Kettle drum and so forth) is certainly nice.
     
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  9. OP
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    Briebee72

    Briebee72 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much for this info I finally got time to play with it. super easy once you know what to look for. If I may ask why did you personally choose setting 1? I found 1 to be very clear and the everything sounded nice and clear turned up but to my ears the highest sounded a bit too high. I then tried 9 and it sounded still nice but sorta muddy like everything was blured together a bit. These were the only two settings I tried as sitting still is not the best way to test sound I changed a setting and then drove around and changed a setting and drove around. Mainly I wanted to thank you for the info everything does sound better and seems I can turn it up more with less distortion. are there any other music setting in forscan other then the 727-01-02 ACM one that you know of?
     
  10. CrashOverride

    CrashOverride Well-Known Member

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    When I did the initial read, my car had the default setting at 1, which is because my mustang has the base system. I'm guessing because of the poorer quality speakers, they jacked up the treble like you said, perhaps even cut some low bass for the same reason. When I put the amp in, I set it to zero I think because that it supposedly what the premium cars run (I can't remember the number because I'm not staring at it right now). Even though I left the speakers stock, because I installed an aftermarket amp, I needed to use ForScan to tell the head unit not to amplify the sounds (Basically the head unit runs low levels out the speaker jacks...that's also how it is done with the premium cars).

    But after I did that, the volume and everything was great because of the line level outs, but I couldn't get the sound the way I liked, so I put it back to 1. So in affect, I still had the HU output line levels, but with the factory processing/eq'ing that came stock. To me, it sounded better that way. I didn't try the other numbers just because I was pretty happy with 1 and because I know there is only so much that can be done with the OEM base speakers.

    Unless Ford changed things, the GT's do not have any fake engine noises pumped into the HQ. I know the Ecoboost's do, and I seem to remember the GT350's did (Surprising I know). I'm not positive about the 3.7. But I see you have a GT, so you are probably not getting any blasphemy through the speakers. Other than those three things (Head unit output level, eq, and fake engine noise) I am not aware of any other tweaks.

    There are lots of other tweaks, such as having the startup animation be something different. I'm sure I will get flamed for this, but I switched the theme to the GT350 because my car is orange, and I feel like the red screen matches it better than the blue. But, you can do silly stuff like have the startup screen be one for a Lincoln. You can also (I think) do things like leaving your driving lights on when your brights are on. In my case, I changed the power port timeout to zero, so as soon as I turn off the engine, the power ports lose power. I also had to add drive modes because I converted from the base radio to a sync3 radio. Doing so requires using the premium bezel, and you can actually make some of the switches work in ForScan.

    There are some guys that retrofitted the BLIS system, and one of the things they needed to do was poke around in ForScan.

    It can become addicting actually, it's like a uber-advanced mode of car settings.

    Glad to hear it helped out and definitely you are welcome. @HextallS550 and @Spart helped me out the most, so all the credit goes to them!
     
  11. OP
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    Briebee72

    Briebee72 Well-Known Member

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    Too funny today I actually found a way on the GT to turn the fake sounds on LOL why? well because I can and it gave me something to do. I also changed my start up screen to the snake but the ford performance one. If anyone don't like it they can go be driven by uber instead of my bass ass mustang :) I think tomorrow im gonna change the setting that uses the fog lights as turn lights to see corners better. again thanks so much for your help.
     
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  12. TunedN

    TunedN Active Member

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    I bought my car with the base system. My choice had nothing to do with price, but with quality. Many old stereo brands have rested on their laurels of high end history. Once they made a name for themselves, they cut quality and kept the price high. This takes advantage of consumers who see the name and go off recognition. Meanwhile the company and its shareholders profit.

    My first full-time job during college was at a car stereo shop. Pioneer is a very recognized brand. They make pro quality DJ equipment which is still considered the gold standard, but they also made the cheapest speakers we carried at $30 a pair. Never base your purchase of brand names or marketing gimmicks like celebrity or blogger (often paid behind the scenes) endorsements.

    Having worked in the industry, I knew the factory setup would be lackluster at best, even with the upgraded options. The only thing that interested me was the driver sound setting and I got that with the base system. You'll have no argument from me that the chips used in the base headunit and amp are poor quality. In the past, I've replace every headunit first, but with the abundance of modern tech that goes through that piece, I've lost all entrancement over spending $1k to get all those features integrated back into the car with an aftermarket system. Proper time alignment with an aftermarket DSP can be very complicated and time consuming. I chose to keep that feature from Ford and make up for the low end chipset quality with the other functions of a DSP.

    Taking that $900 expense from Ford, and doubling it on quality parts, then doing my own installation, I've got a stereo that sounds 100x better than stock. I tapped into the factory amp, ran it to a DSP, and flattened the digital EQ. The DSP runs to a 4 channel amp. Two channels are bridged and send 400W RMS to the subwoofer, which permeates well into the cabin with the crap rear speakers removed and leaving open air for the sound to travel into the cabin from the trunk. The other two channels feed 125W RMS each of the two passive crossovers (one in each door). The crossovers each feed 3-way speaker sets installed in the factory locations. Sound quality auto competitors almost NEVER use rear speakers as they mess up the stage of the music and make it less concert-like. With a properly powered amp and capable speaker, the sound fills the vehicle and I've never felt a loss from removing the rear set.

    The line levels were tested with an oscilloscope for distortion, then the amp speaker level lines were adjusted to achieve the target wattages with the "driver" sound mode. The time alignment from the Ford "driver" setting makes the music come alive, while it used to only make it seem quieter. The surround setting is still a little louder, but makes the sound more ambient and less crisp, and also causes my amp to overdrive the speakers.

    Some of you may be thinking, of course if you spend twice as much on parts and don't have to pay installation it's gonna sound better. Or, I don't know how to do the installations, so it could be 3x the price of the Ford upgrade for that setup. Don't fret; these upgrades can be done step by step. First, upgrade the door speakers and forget the rear ones for about $700 installed. That alone will sound better than the $900 Ford option. Next, add an amp and subwoofer for about $500 installed. Finally, if you even think it's still necessary (entirely based on whether you're happy with the EQ and crossover settings) add a DSP for about $600 installed.

    I'm used to a little more bass, so my next step is to add sound dampening material to the trunk and doors. If I want to hear the car I can turn down the music or shut it off completely; however, with quality audio gear, I can hear my music clearly even at low volumes and hear my exhaust at the same time. I have an aftermarket exhaust, and with this setup I can raise the windows and only hear the stereo if I'm in a music mood. YMMV
     
  13. Idaho2018GTPremium

    Idaho2018GTPremium Well-Known Member

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    I got the 9 speaker system with the GT Premium. I replaced the rear deck speakers with a set of Focal RCX-165 two way 6.5" drivers. That alone improved the overall sound quality immensely over the factory setup: Much better midrange and highs, and more sensitive (i.e., louder) speakers than factory. It gave a better overall balance, and took some of the emphasis from the overly loud front dash speaker, quality of which leaves a lot to be desired. If I ever feel like upgrading further, that would be my next step, followed by more sensitive/higher quality lower door woofers. Probably won't, though. It's decent enough for me now.

    The frame on the OEM rear deck speakers are plastic(!), and they have the smallest magnet I've ever seen on a speaker with the exception of alarm clock radios. They sounded absolutely dreadful by themselves (fader set to full rear). Now, with the Focals, even though the bass is rolled off, the mids and highs are pretty decent, given the limitations of the factory amp.
     
  14. TunedN

    TunedN Active Member

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    Focal is a great sounding brand. I had their 6K2P components in my last car with a total price of $8k for the entire system. Putting them in the rear deck is a total car audio faux pas though. That will pull your sound stage to the back and keep any subwoofer bass partially trapped in the trunk.

    The high-end setups compete for sound stage as one of the factors. You want it to sound like the band is playing live music standing on the middle of your hood. Kind of hard to explain concisely when you don't know what you're missing. There's a reason Ford put the crappiest speakers in the back; they're not considered essential in a hi-fi setup. Like I said, I took mine out and can't hear that they're gone because my setup fills the cabin with sound from a good audio tune.

    You're off to a good start with choosing quality parts, but I would recommend taking it in a different direction if you decide you need something more fulfilling. Fine to keep those there, but make sure you go with components in the front and not coaxials. 2-way or 3-way speakers use a very "affordable" crossover and you lose lots of power handling and tuning abilities.

    My last car had a Focal 40KX subwoofer which is rated at 500 watts RMS. With proper tuning I ran the sub at 1050 watts with no distortion, overexcursion, or overheating, and MUCH better low-end response. My recommendations in the prior post are what I consider a mid-level setup and almost a bare minimum for a sound quality over quantity setup [although that doesn't mean it isn't loud when it's turned up]. The noise floor isn't really where I want it, and I hit RMS at about 3/5th on the dial before distortion hits from the factory headunit. Still 125 watts RMS per channel at 4 ohms is plenty for a coupe in my opinion.
     
  15. Idaho2018GTPremium

    Idaho2018GTPremium Well-Known Member

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    The front speakers combined are still significantly louder than the rear, even with the Focals back there, and the sound stage is still front biased. It just cleaned up the muddiness coming from the rear, added some better defined highs, and is only a few dB louder than the factory speakers, not enough to move the sound stage to the rear. But with much better sound.

    Regarding the fronts - I would definitely go with individual drivers if I were to ever replace them, because the lower door speaker is a woofer in the 9 speaker system, so I wouldn't put a two-way in that spot, I'd use a woofer driver. There's a mid-range driver in the upper door that would get replaced with the same size, and the satellite tweeter in the A-pillar.
     
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