Challenge: reduce revs for that first 20 sec of startup?

[TomOz]

I think if I got even a partial solution, coupled with me continuing to jam the two Harley Davidson mufflers I have into the pipes...that might just be enough....

I had limited success jamming pool noodles into the exhaust - they kept blowing out!
I might try wrapping them in some cloth for a tighter fit.

I bought two different sizes. The 7cm (pink/man salmon in the picture) is the one that fit best in my 2018.
Clark Rubber sell these.

The impetus for me to do this is reduced these days as I now have a full brick house and garage. You can still hear the cold start pretty well, even with the mode set to quiet.

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[Vlad Soare]

Interesting also to note that the software to accompany it allows you to read values, but not write them, although this totally makes sense from a commercial perspective. We know they have to make $ somewhere, so I'm sure none of us begrudge them that (I say this prior to checking the price of 4 credits, so I am review that wording ;-) ).

The idea of paying for each car you tune does look sound to me. There's a lot of work going not only into the software itself, but especially into decoding the PCM and finding out how to interpret the data and how to display it in a human-readable format. This is by no means trivial, or public information. PCMs for various brands/models/manufacturing years/etc. are all different, and HPtuners must work hard to decode them all. The reason the VCM Editor knows that my cold idle rpm is set to 1,250 is that somebody from HPtuners has discovered at what address the cold idle rpm is stored in the PCM of a 2018+ Mustang, and how it is encoded.
Now, imagine that all they charged for this work would be a measly one-time licence for the software. You could buy it once, then become a professional tuner and make a lot of money tuning a lot of cars. That wouldn't be fair.
This system makes it fair. You're an amateur who only wants to tune his own car? You pay once, then do what you want with it. You're a professional who makes money tuning many cars? Then pay a fee for each car you tune. Seems fair to me.

Anyway, with all of that said, it seems that the 2018+ Mustangs have a more sedate start-up. I know it's new Gen Coyote under the hood, but....how are they doing that?

I'm not sure that's true. Granted, I've never heard a 2015-2017 GT start up, but my 2020 in normal mode is anything but sedate. You can hear my car start from two blocks away. I do have the active exhaust though, which is standard equipment in Europe, and the Quiet Start does indeed calm it down considerably. There's a deep roar the very instant it starts up, but then it immediately settles to a muffled hum that isn't much louder, if at all, than an ordinary diesel.
That being said, I don't use the Quiet Start option unless I leave home early in the morning or late in the evening. The rest of the time the normal mode is just fine. It's loud, but not in an obnoxious way. One neighbour even told me once how much he likes the sound, and that he enjoys hearing me pass by his house.

 

[MicksS550]

The idea of paying for each car you tune does look sound to me. There's a lot of work going not only into the software itself, but especially into decoding the PCM and finding out how to interpret the data and how to display it in a human-readable format. This is by no means trivial, or public information. PCMs for various brands/models/manufacturing years/etc. are all different, and HPtuners must work hard to decode them all. The reason the VCM Editor knows that my cold idle rpm is set to 1,250 is that somebody from HPtuners has discovered at what address the cold idle rpm is stored in the PCM of a 2018+ Mustang, and how it is encoded.
Now, imagine that all they charged for this work would be a measly one-time licence for the software. You could buy it once, then become a professional tuner and make a lot of money tuning a lot of cars. That wouldn't be fair.
This system makes it fair. You're an amateur who only wants to tune his own car? You pay once, then do what you want with it. You're a professional who makes money tuning many cars? Then pay a fee for each car you tune. Seems fair to me.


I'm not sure that's true. Granted, I've never heard a 2015-2017 GT start up, but my 2020 in normal mode is anything but sedate. You can hear my car start from two blocks away. I do have the active exhaust though, which is standard equipment in Europe, and the Quiet Start does indeed calm it down considerably. There's a deep roar the very instant it starts up, but then it immediately settles to a muffled hum that isn't much louder, if at all, than an ordinary diesel.
That being said, I don't use the Quiet Start option unless I leave home early in the morning or late in the evening. The rest of the time the normal mode is just fine. It's loud, but not in an obnoxious way. One neighbour even told me once how much he likes the sound, and that he enjoys hearing me pass by his house.

Yes, unfortunately I think MY neighbours would be happier if I was passing by YOUR Neighbour…. ;-)
Tomorrow morning I’m getting up early to go and get myself an MPVI2+ so I can experiment a little. There’s an HP Tuner dealer an hour from where I live, and I wonder if they’ll give me any little rid-bits of information when I buy it?
Truth be told, I very well may get them to do a tune anyway, since they have a dyno etc. As much as I’d love to have someone send me a tune I buy, I have to admit that a tune done on a dyno is likely to be much, much more accurate to my specific setup

 

[MicksS550]

There’s some cold start emissions reduction (CSER) strategies in addition to the high idle on cold start. Ignition timing is part of the CSER warm up strategy. It retards the timing to get more heat into the exhaust so it can light off the cats and heat up the O2s. On 2018+ cars it doesn’t work the same as it did in the 2017 and older 5.0s. It can be tamed down with a tune, but the info on how to do it is being held tightly. It used to work by changing all the CSER ignition timing tables to the same values across the board to match the hot start numbers (55° IIRC). Not anymore for some reason.

Maybe someone who knows how to do it on the 18+ cars is willing to share, becasue I haven’t figured it out.

Ok, so I've installed the VCM Editor that goes with HP Tuners, and I found a sample S550 file to dig into - now I see what you mean. I also understand the explanation you've given - that makes sense.
I wonder what would happen if I changed the "Engine / Idle / RPM / Temperature Based / Cold / Exit ECT" value instead? In other words, if I set that threshold to be *zero* (it was 48.9 deg C) and also set the "Warm / Entry ECT" to 0....then the ECM might go from saying:

Between 0 - 48.9 degrees C do a "Cold Start"
Between 48.9 - 71.1 degrees C do a "Warm Start", and
Above 71.1 degrees C do a "Hot Start"

TO

Between 0 - 0 degrees C do a "Cold Start" (ie. never)
Between 0 - 71.1 degrees C do a "Warm Start", (ie. almost always) and
Above 71.1 degrees C do a "Hot Start"

I haven't got my HP Tuner yet, so I can't try it.....

 

[MicksS550]

The idea of paying for each car you tune does look sound to me. There's a lot of work going not only into the software itself, but especially into decoding the PCM and finding out how to interpret the data and how to display it in a human-readable format. This is by no means trivial, or public information. PCMs for various brands/models/manufacturing years/etc. are all different, and HPtuners must work hard to decode them all. The reason the VCM Editor knows that my cold idle rpm is set to 1,250 is that somebody from HPtuners has discovered at what address the cold idle rpm is stored in the PCM of a 2018+ Mustang, and how it is encoded.
Now, imagine that all they charged for this work would be a measly one-time licence for the software. You could buy it once, then become a professional tuner and make a lot of money tuning a lot of cars. That wouldn't be fair.
This system makes it fair. You're an amateur who only wants to tune his own car? You pay once, then do what you want with it. You're a professional who makes money tuning many cars? Then pay a fee for each car you tune. Seems fair to me.


I'm not sure that's true. Granted, I've never heard a 2015-2017 GT start up, but my 2020 in normal mode is anything but sedate. You can hear my car start from two blocks away. I do have the active exhaust though, which is standard equipment in Europe, and the Quiet Start does indeed calm it down considerably. There's a deep roar the very instant it starts up, but then it immediately settles to a muffled hum that isn't much louder, if at all, than an ordinary diesel.
That being said, I don't use the Quiet Start option unless I leave home early in the morning or late in the evening. The rest of the time the normal mode is just fine. It's loud, but not in an obnoxious way. One neighbour even told me once how much he likes the sound, and that he enjoys hearing me pass by his house.

Oh, and I totally agree with you that it is fair that each tune is effectively tied to one car (one way or another). I'm happy to pay for that. I just hope I can get it to do what I need it to.

 

[MicksS550]

Just to close out the thread - today I applied the modified package to my car via the HP Tuner, and it acted as expected. That is, on a Cold Start it now starts much more quietly, and sits at around 800 rpm, instead of 1250. The difference is huge.

I did this by changing a few settings:

That is:

Under "Temperature Based" / Cold there's a "Exit ECT" - I changed this from 48.9'Celcius to -10'C. Hence, when the Engine Coolant Temperature is above -10, it will exit the Cold Start routine and enter the Warm (until it reaches 71.1'C, at which point it will exit this stage too, and go to "Hot")

To be on the safe side, I also changed all the idle values within the "Cold" to:
- Base: 800 rpm
- Startup: 800 rpm
- CSER: 800 rpm
I did this because I read in another thread that doing the "Cold" Base/Statup/CSER by themselves was not making a difference

PROBLEM

I'm told that this modification/change may impact emissions, so it may be that it is not compliant - I may need to revert back...

Logically, I'd have thought that this emissions difference was neglible, since the car now emits *far* less exhaust initially, and I'm sure the CATs *do* come up to temperature, although no doubt some time after that initial 20 seconds....

 

[Vlad Soare]

That's great news. I'm glad to hear that it worked.
As for your emissions dilemma, I wouldn't worry about it. The emissions are always checked with the engine warmed up. No one is going to even think about timing your start-up or checking your cold idle speed.

I see you've got a few parameters more than I do. All of the entry and exit ECTs are missing from my configuration. Could be because mine is a 2018+. Who knows, different PCM, maybe not fully decoded yet...
Which version is your VCM Editor? is it 4.10?

 

[MicksS550]

That's great news. I'm glad to hear that it worked.
As for your emissions dilemma, I wouldn't worry about it. The emissions are always checked with the engine warmed up. No one is going to even think about timing your start-up or checking your cold idle speed.

I see you've got a few parameters more than I do. All of the entry and exit ECTs are missing from my configuration. Could be because mine is a 2018+. Who knows, different PCM, maybe not fully decoded yet...
Which version is your VCM Editor? is it 4.10?

Thanks mate - and I appreciate your input throughout my sound output journey ;-)

Yes, my software is 4.10.7, and I think you're right - they likely haven't found where in the data the values are for the ECTs on newer models just yet.

 

[mejohn50]

Just to close out the thread - today I applied the modified package to my car via the HP Tuner, and it acted as expected. That is, on a Cold Start it now starts much more quietly, and sits at around 800 rpm, instead of 1250. The difference is huge.

I did this by changing a few settings:

That is:

Under "Temperature Based" / Cold there's a "Exit ECT" - I changed this from 48.9'Celcius to -10'C. Hence, when the Engine Coolant Temperature is above -10, it will exit the Cold Start routine and enter the Warm (until it reaches 71.1'C, at which point it will exit this stage too, and go to "Hot")

To be on the safe side, I also changed all the idle values within the "Cold" to:
- Base: 800 rpm
- Startup: 800 rpm
- CSER: 800 rpm
I did this because I read in another thread that doing the "Cold" Base/Statup/CSER by themselves was not making a difference

PROBLEM

I'm told that this modification/change may impact emissions, so it may be that it is not compliant - I may need to revert back...

Logically, I'd have thought that this emissions difference was neglible, since the car now emits *far* less exhaust initially, and I'm sure the CATs *do* come up to temperature, although no doubt some time after that initial 20 seconds....

I’m glad this simple change worked for you.

I see you've got a few parameters more than I do. All of the entry and exit ECTs are missing from my configuration. Could be because mine is a 2018+. Who knows, different PCM, maybe not fully decoded yet...
Which version is your VCM Editor? is it 4.10?

You might find them defined in the latest beta. If not just let me know and I can send you the ECM numbers so you can request them to be added to your definition. I can even send you my stock 2019 US market file so you can run a compare and put in a request for any missing tables you might find. Send me a PM if you are interested.

 

[Vlad Soare]

I can even send you my stock 2019 US market file so you can run a compare and put in a request for any missing tables you might find. Send me a PM if you are interested.

That would be fantastic. Thank you.
PM sent.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Let me introduce you to the camaro ss active mode startup. It goes to full track mode and makes the stock coyote flee in terror at the initial bark. It's downright uncivilized.

Yeah, no kidding, the cold start in my ZL1 is startingly loud for an OEM system. If I'm in a parking lot and someone is walking behind my car I wait until they clear, because it makes people jump. And its stock.

 

[MicksS550]

Yeah, no kidding, the cold start in my ZL1 is startingly loud for an OEM system. If I'm in a parking lot and someone is walking behind my car I wait until they clear, because it makes people jump. And its stock.

Yyyyyyyep - that's the problem alright idaho.... ;-)

 

[Vlad Soare]

I see you've got a few parameters more than I do. All of the entry and exit ECTs are missing from my configuration. Could be because mine is a 2018+.

My mistake. Nothing is missing. I was in Basic viewing mode; I didn't know there was an Advanced one.
In Advanced mode all the entry/exit temperatures are there.

 

[MicksS550]

My mistake. Nothing is missing. I was in Basic viewing mode; I didn't know there was an Advanced one.
In Advanced mode all the entry/exit temperatures are there.

I'm quite relieved, actually. I was starting to think a bit "....hmmmm - what's going on here.....?"

 

[MicksS550]

You just have to find a way to lodge the foam noodle in there such that it won't completely block air flow and doesn't fly out the moment you start the car. But if you can get that done, it does quiet it down enough for the initial start. Then you can quickly pull it out, toss it somewhere in your garage and then roll out. Try not to leave them in for too long or if your exhaust is already hot (because it'll melt... I absolutely do not have some melted foam bits inside the exhaust...lol)

I only really do this if I need to go somewhere really late or super early in the morning haha.

Do you know what, LightKnight0? I just did a comparison of my fancy-shmancy-Harley-muffler-and-rubber-ring vs the good ol' Pool Noodles..... They're ABOUT THE SAME!

*BUT*

The Pool Noodles are *WAY* easier to do (AND I can stuff them in, warm the car, drive quietly out of my garage and onto the street, then take them out). Then I just toss them into the boot and drive off into the sun(rise).... ;-)

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