Cars.com compare the PP1 vs PP2

[robsilveri]

As soon as he said the PP1 was Auto and the PP2 was manual, I stopped watching, really, what's the point. Both in Auto would have probably been a better comparison, takes the "shifting ability" of the driver out of the equation. Either way transmissions should have been same.

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[Norm Peterson]

I know this will piss off a lot of you on this forum that are manual only, but if you actually look at performance and the technology used in modern day racing series you would understand why the 10r80 is so damn impressive.

Even though I haven't actually owned an AT car in several decades, I understand quite well where an automatic transmission's advantages lie.

I also know that many activities in life are more rewarding when you have to do more of the 'work' yourself. Now if it was you personally that put some new technological approach together and got it to demonstrate superiority, that'd be a different story. The back you'd get to pat there would be your own.

The odd thing here is, I'm quite sure I'd have a much easier time adapting to the 10R80 at HPDE on the track than in street driving. Not sure I could live with it on the street at all without major changes to its programming.


Norm

 

[mustang5o]

Maybe they will release a power pack upgrade that includes reprogramming the transmission

 

[Norm Peterson]

As soon as he said the PP1 was Auto and the PP2 was manual, I stopped watching, really, what's the point. Both in Auto would have probably been a better comparison, takes the "shifting ability" of the driver out of the equation. Either way transmissions should have been same.

I think the guest driver was more than adequately qualified to make the road course comparison with both cars as 6MT. No basis for opinion regarding the quarter mile.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Maybe they will release a power pack upgrade that includes reprogramming the transmission

I'd be looking at doing something well beyond what "reprogramming the transmission" normally implies.


Norm

 

[mustang5o]

I think the guest driver was more than adequately qualified to make the road course comparison with both cars as 6MT. No basis for opinion regarding the quarter mile.


Norm

Agreed but why didn't she at least try a lap or two with the paddle shifters. She said she wished it would have down shifted one more gear coming out of the corners ...you have the power.

I still expect the PP2 car to be faster since tires make the biggest difference. I just talked to one of my track mentors today who has 37 years experience racing and he said, when talking mods, "Tires make the biggest difference". Again, not the point of the comparison but I would like to see an experienced driver compare an auto (paddle shifted) v manual with the same tires even if it's PP1 v PP1. Otherwise a PP1 manual v PP2 would be another good test but even still I'd like to see that one on equal tires to see how much the other differences help. Braking is subjective too as some prefer to brake extremely hard and deep then power out and others prefer to brake early and softer and use momentum. I've had different instructors teach me both.

 

[Ace21]

I'd be looking at doing something well beyond what "reprogramming the transmission" normally implies.

Norm, I'll start by saying that I have as much respect for you as someone can possibly have for someone over the internet due to your expressed experience and knowledge that can be gathered through your many posts on this forum.

With that said I would love to hear what you think would need to be changed in the trans seeing that the GT, hell even the GT350, are supposed to be middle ground between street and track are they not?

Have you experienced the trans in a '18 in every mode for more than say a 20min test drive? No disrespect is intended, I only ask because some of your posts regarding the trans don't seem to jive with someone who has actually put hands on and really run through it.

I have now had two S550 PP1s one with the MT82 and one with the 10r80 and I can tell you that there are some nuances with the 10r80, however, it hands down obliterates the MT82 on track and on the street.

 

[mustang5o]

I have now had two S550 PP1s one with the MT82 and one with the 10r80 and I can tell you that there are some nuances with the 10r80, however, it hands down obliterates the MT82 on track and on the street.

When you say "track" do you mean road course or drag strip?

 

[Norm Peterson]

Agreed but why didn't she at least try a lap or two with the paddle shifters. She said she wished it would have down shifted one more gear coming out of the corners ...you have the power.

I did catch that, and went back and replayed that part hoping I'd missed some further explanation . . . but I guess we all know how that ended up playing out.

Best I can do on the 'why' is speculate . . . possibly not enough familiarity with using paddles, possibly having heard that paddle-shift mode can be a bit laggy compared to letting the tranny doing its own thing, etc. Though even that doesn't explain why she wasn't downshifting to the right gear on corner entry like she would with the M6. Or maybe she did try the paddles for a lap or two and ran slower times.

What would have really been nice would have been if they'd datalogged the laps with something like an Aim Solo unit and posted screenshots of the speed and g traces for the best laps using MT, AT automatically, and AT with paddles.


Norm

 

[C0BRA]

I mean i get you have a gt350, but not sure why they need to test it against one.. one would hope a set of tires and a little tuning doesnt let a GT get that close to a gt350 lol I guess it would be interesting to see though?

Because Ford is calling it a track car. GT350's are their track car. So compare them.

 

[mustang5o]

Best I can do on the 'why' is speculate . . . possibly not enough familiarity with using paddles, possibly having heard that paddle-shift mode can be a bit laggy compared to letting the tranny doing its own thing, etc. Though even that doesn't explain why she wasn't downshifting to the right gear on corner entry like she would with the M6. Or maybe she did try the paddles for a lap or two and ran slower times.

Yeah who knows. I know with paddle shifting I've done you just need time to figure out the timing of the shifts since your usually braking when you downshift anyway. I'm betting if I go with the auto I could down shift it faster than manual with some practice especially when I've had to go from 5th to 3rd. The timing of upshifts would need to be figured out as well. It's funny because I've read and heard people just praising the auto like crazy but I've also heard plenty of the opposite.

 

[Norm Peterson]

No disrespect is intended, I only ask because some of your posts regarding the trans don't seem to jive with someone who has actually put hands on and really run through it.

I have now had two S550 PP1s one with the MT82 and one with the 10r80 and I can tell you that there are some nuances with the 10r80, however, it hands down obliterates the MT82 on track and on the street.

No offense taken.

At least part of it has to do with 'nuances' that are simply too different from driving a MT car. Things like shift logic and timing, and having the car's throttle control closely tied to more than just the control of throttle opening. I find AT behavior to be particularly annoying during foot-commanded downshifts - that's with any AT, BTW. To me, that's a 'throttle nonlinearity' ('technologically forced un-smoothness in one's driving' is how it feels to me) that I'd much rather not have to cope with. Doesn't matter if the programming is more fuel-efficient or even if it gives better performance if it's not matching what I'd naturally do manually.

As I posted in #77 of this thread, I'm sure I'd have a much easier time adjusting to the 10R80 out on a road course (very preferably with a +/- shift lever option rather than paddles) than I'd ever be able to reach in normal street driving. I guess I'm just not wired to accept "slap it in 'D' and go" as the way to do any of my driving.


Norm

 

[Dinosoar]

Okay, that gag video is freaking hilarious. But here's my rub with the comparison video. The two cars have the same brakes and engine...exact same. The tire and suspension tuning is everything between these two cars. It cannot be overstated. I know they mentioned it in the video, but it should be the focus of the video. I am glad the PP1 was an A10 car. Comparing two exact drivelines is moot because we KNOW the PP2 is faster...or Ford wouldn't have built it. But those tires improve braking and handling (namely apex speed especially). I too felt the guy was a bit clueless in what seemed to be coincidental mention of the tire's effect. The comparison over cost was just dumb. I got a PP1 with A10 and did not spend $52K nor $42K...what a dope. No one mentioned how that A10 would hold up on a track with heat...that is a critical point to be made that wasn't. So, what if I put GT350 tires on my PP1 (I did), or better, the PP2 tires on my PP1 A10 car...then what? I think the video merely explained to us the equivalent argument that "water is wet" without really even explaining why.

Final note, while the gag video is awesome and funny, automatics are getting a raw deal. Anyone who thinks sports cars, performance cars, race cars, or performance driving must have a manual does not get it! The lack of a third pedal has nothing to do with the core of race driving or high performance driving. It is all about the throttle, brake and wheel all managed through the four contact patches; that's it. A clutch just changes how you do that. Either an auto or manual you still mange the four contact patches through those same three dynamics. Arguing between manual or automatic is like arguing which color is better, red or blue; which is crazy! Cuz everyone knows blue is better!! Hey, I love my manual-tranny race car...love it! And, I ain't no don't-know-how-to-drive-a-manual millennial, either. Autos are faster and don't compromise the core of driving at the limit. It is just technology progression. Get upset over ABS, rear steer (you listening Porsche) and launch control...they all take away from the driver's responsibility (at some level) at the limit and give it to the computer. Autos don't do that. Hell, look at F1, WEC, WRC, IMSA and many other race series. Are those cars not pure because they have paddle shift transmissions and no third pedal?

 

[Arthonon]

CNET (which I don't normally think of as car specialists) did a review of the 2018 Mustang, and while largely postive, auto-haters will appreciate their views on the 10-speed. Anyone who doesn't like the updated front will feel validated as well:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/reviews/2018-ford-mustang-gt-fastback-review/

 

[jake_zx2]

Anyone who thinks sports cars, performance cars, race cars, or performance driving must have a manual does not get it! The lack of a third pedal has nothing to do with the core of race driving or high performance driving. It is all about the throttle, brake and wheel all managed through the four contact patches; that's it.

They do though. Automatics are not good track transmissions, simple as that. It’s not all about throttle, brake, and wheel, it’s also about driveability and longevity. They run hotter, they’re not as precise, and they’re harder to modulate. Now, keep in mind, there’s a difference between an “automatic” like the 10R80 and an “automated manual”, like the DCT in most high end sports cars

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