Car and Driver Compares the 1LE to the PP2

[Hack]

Apparently you have never driven a car with good steering if you think tramlining is the height of good steering feel.

I test drove a regular SS after the 6th Gen 1LE was announced, but none of my local dealers had any yet. I was impressed, particularly with the steering feel. If I had been able to get a 1LE at the time at a decent price, I wouldn't be driving a Mustang today.

That's not what I said. Are you saying that a car that uses programming of the electronic steering assist to prevent tramlining will have better steering feel than a car that allows shapes in the road to cause the steering wheel to twist in the driver's hands?

Frankly - I probably haven't driven a lot of cars with great steering feel. I like the feel in my 2004 Z06 - and it has hydraulic steering which generally is accepted as being superior for feel compared to electric assist. And it's possible I'm just not a good enough or experienced enough at track driving to know what great feel is like.

But I do know what numb steering is like. Numb means that nothing that happens between the road and tire will cause feedback at the steering wheel.

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[thasuperdude]

Yeah, this fell apart quickly. In the end, we as consumers win. I think it's fucking fantastic we have 2 Pony cars that are borderline sports cars. I'm happy Chevy stepped up their game. Car sales numbers are irrelevant in performance cars, they make them for bragging rights. The STi NEVER made money for Subaru, it was a rolling billboard that did it's job every year. Same goes with these 2 cars. Ford sees that it's losing to Chevy in the high-end track battles and that's only going provoke them to produce a Mustang that is sharper and has better feel. And then Chevy will up their game, we all win, car enthusiast. Not Ford or Chevy guys, every sports car buyer. I left BMW for a Ford and I'm happy as hell I made the move. In 5 year, whoever has the better car for daily and light track use I'll go that direction. But again, we all are winners with this heated battle of Pony cars. It should inspire everyone to get out there to an auto-x or track night and do a right-a-long or swop cars with someone see what their passions are. You'll be surprised, we live in a age where any car out there with a hit of sporting in it IS fun to drive.

Oh and POPCORN! Burn, little, half-popped kernels soaked in butter are the best.

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

And yet, here we are with ginormous V8s making more power than ever.

Huh? You realize that all the way back in 1964 Ford developed a 7 liter sohc v8 that made +650hp NA, right?

It even found it's way into some factory A/FX 1965 mustangs.

 

[gmuffley]

Huh? You realize that all the way back in 1964 Ford developed a 7 liter sohc v8 that made +650hp NA, right?

It even found it's way into some factory A/FX 1965 mustangs.

That engine was designed for racing applications, not the street. The engines built today kick sand in the face of golden age muscle cars; are far more reliable; and, last longer.

 

[9secondko]

Bruh, we already have a thread for this type of silliness.

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/who-will-swap-for-the-new-7-3-v8.118509/page-152

This thread is about popcorn. If you can't weigh in on the best way to make it, you can go eat Fiddle Faddle. I hope you enjoy it too, it is delightful.

Well... fiddle fiddle is great stuff. Which reminds me, I’m fresh out. Gotta make a trip to the store in the Cobra.

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

That engine was designed for racing applications, not the street. The engines built today kick sand in the face of golden age muscle cars; are far more reliable; and, last longer.

Thank you Captain Obvious. In the context of the statement I responded to, my point stands. V8 engines today are not "ginormous" by any comparison, and the ability to achieve the specific output isn't new, or greater.

Are engines built with better materials and technology today? Duh!

To add further perspective, a new mustang in 1964 would cost about 50% of the median annual income, whereas today it will cost just shy of 100%. So yeah, our cars today are better, but comparatively, they cost more than twice as much! I certainly hope they are better!

 

[MaskedRacerX]

This thread is about popcorn. If you can't weigh in on the best way to make it, you can go eat Fiddle Faddle. I hope you enjoy it too, it is delightful.

Wow, I haven't had Fiddle Faddle in [literally] decades.

We do our own kettle corn, just start like always, big pot, coconut oil, touch of butter, salt, then add a big scoop of brown sugar, add kernels, pop like normal. The secret is to dump it on a large cooking sheet, so it's like one layer and it'll dry nicely and get crunchy ... and sweet ... AND SALTY! WOO!

 

[Mountain376]

Someone that has tracked a PP2 against a 1LE could weigh in here and get this thread back on point.

Good luck. I’ve seen zero PP2 cars at a track event or autox since they’ve been out. Seen them on the road...

Still, it’d have to be same driver in both. Two different drivers - different skill and perception levels.

 

[thasuperdude]

These guys are pretty good journalists. In the end, the Mustang is more livable, which is 100% why we all chose what we did.


Track Vid.

 

[Arthonon]

I don't think there's any question that, as equipped, the 1LE is the better car for the track, stock for stock, and I think it's cool that two companies offer cars like this at this price level. As I've said before, everything is personal preference, as to what features are most important to have.

For me, even though I don't have the PP2, I think the quotes below from that comparison sum up why I preferred the Mustang:

"In fact, were it not for the presence of the Camaro, we would have been really smitten with the Ford."
I take that to mean that the Mustang was certainly not a bad car, it performs well, it just doesn't perform as well as the Camaro 1LE. It's not like you get a car whose performance sucks when buying the Mustang, it's just not the best performance in the class.

And:
"The better vehicle of the two, but not the better pony car."
Again, not as good as the Camaro in performance, but better than the Camaro in almost every other area.

Not being a track rat, that extra performance just wasn't worth the trade-offs for me.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

3773 lbs for the Camaro vs 3821 lbs for the Mustang. Heavier rims and tires on the Mustang due to the sizing, but no air to engine oil cooler, no transmission cooler, and no differential cooler (and all the assosciated coolant, lines, and bracketry) means that if they were equally contented the Mustang would likely be near 100-150lbs heavier. Ouch. Plus, the Camaro has heated and cooled Recaros, and a 3 gallon larger fuel tank.

All GTs come with separate oil coolers, just not the axle and tranny coolers.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

I was a Camaro/GM guy my whole life. When in the market for a new car last fall, I naturally started looking at the '18 SS. But, I wasn't in love with its looks, then I turned attention to the '18 GT. I had to drive one, then when I did, I was hooked, and bought it. But, the reasons I chose it over the SS: Better looks, better engine, better interior, a lot more safety tech, (Safe and Smart package), 10 speed auto, 50% larger trunk, bigger back seat (slightly), better visibility, and did I mention the looks? The PP1 is a darn fine looking machine. That wide, squat read-end is amazing to see IMO. And you know what - I never track it, so the handling dynamics is plenty perfect for me on the street. It grips 0.98 Gs, plenty for me.

That said, The PP2 is nearly as fast around a track and has similar grip to the 1LE. According to this C&D test the PP1 has slightly more grip and slightly faster slalom speed and slightly better brakes, and better brake feel. I do like the brake feel on my PP1. The difference is, from what I've read on many different tests, the PP2 isn't as confident nor as balanced as the 1LE.

 

[cosmo]

All GTs come with separate oil coolers, just not the axle and tranny coolers.

They come with water to oil coolers. That's just a line in to the radiator system, no extra weight. The Camaro system is an air to engine oil cooler. It plumbs oil through oil lines directly to an oil radiator, instead of coolant. This adds weight, but it is a much more robust cooling option. The GT350 utilizes an air to engine oil cooler, but the standard GTs do not.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

They come with water to oil coolers. That's just a line in to the radiator system, no extra weight. The Camaro system is an air to engine oil cooler. It plumbs oil through oil lines directly to an oil radiator, instead of coolant. This adds weight, but it is a much more robust cooling option. The GT350 utilizes an air to engine oil cooler, but the standard GTs do not.

Well, that means the oil cooler for the regular GT and PP1/PP2 is a liquid-to-liquid heat exchanger. Those are used all the time in many different industries and that type of heat exchanger is not necessarily less robust than an air-to-liquid heat exchanger. As long as the main radiator is sized adequately to handle the additional heat demand from the oil, then it'll work. The PP1/PP2 has a larger radiator than the regular GT, so it's going to work. Most likely the separate air-to-liquid heat exchanger (or "air to engine oil cooler" in your terminology) on the GT350 and 1LE is used to allow for more precise oil cooling management since that heat exchanger can be sized for certain discharge temperatures on both the oil and air side. Whereas, when the coolant cooling the oil on the GT is from the radiator, it is dependent on the engine coolant temperature and thus the oil temperature can't be controlled to a separate, lower temperature if so desired.

 

[Mountain376]

They come with water to oil coolers. That's just a line in to the radiator system, no extra weight. The Camaro system is an air to engine oil cooler. It plumbs oil through oil lines directly to an oil radiator, instead of coolant. This adds weight, but it is a much more robust cooling option. The GT350 utilizes an air to engine oil cooler, but the standard GTs do not.

SS 1LE has the same cooling systems as the SS. The ZL1 is nearly the same, also.

Oil cooler is liquid-liquid, tied to the cooling system. Thing is, the cooling system on the Camaro is very large in capacity (large, center radiator and two aux units, one at each side of the front fascia). Oil temperatures can be held better to coolant temp.

Trans cooler is liquid-air.

Diff cooler is liquid-liquid, tied to the trans cooler system.

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