CAN Bus questions for Sync3 retrofit into old truck

[CrashOverride]

Hey all, it's been a long time since I've been on here, but fret not as I still have my Mustang. Part of the reason I've been offline so long is my new project.

I'm doing a resto/rusto-mod 1954 Ford F100. I'm quite a ways away from being done, but I like to have a plan in place many steps ahead to source parts and so forth.

In short, I really like Sync3 (I also have it in my 2017 F150) and I'm a firm believer in a radio having two real dials, so the easy solution of throwing in an aftermarket touchscreen just isn't an option I'm willing to do.

So what I'm trying to do is get Sync3 working. I do not care about getting the reverse camera working. I'd like to be able to still "talk to it" using ForScan. I have the FSM, so I have the various pinouts, but my knowledge of the CAN bus is only theory based and not a practical application.

From what I've been able to find, there are multiple CAN busses (Low, Medium and High Speed) and I seem to remember the bus is sent over a twisted pair wiring, at least for the medium and high speed runs. I had planned on using twisted pair ethernet cables as I don't have a sync3 wiring harness I could use (Of course I could hit up any LKQ pick a part if need be). I know there is the APIM, ACM and FCIM. I seem to remember the busses need to be terminated at the ends with (I believe a 50-ohm resistor).

I guess the main question is this - if I chain the modules together using the twisted pair, and also attach a OBD2 port with the data pins, will it work? I don't know if there are other modules that would need to be there, like a BCM or some sort of central computer/gateway to manage the different CAN busses and/or translate the different busses so that they can talk on the OBD2 connector. From what I've read, the CAN bus is a mesh/point-to-point setup, which to me means every device is "smart enough" to work without a main controller.

I have done some searches and I haven't found anyone that has done this, anytime you use the word "retrofit" you get people going from sync2 to sync3, so I'm not finding anything to answer my questions. I've searched for "building a bench harness", but I haven't found anything related to firing up a sync system on a bench. I'm not knowledgeable in SCADA systems, so I don't have background knowledge there to answer this question. I'm not an EE either, I'm just a curious creature

Of course I could just buy the equipment and try it out, but that's a decent amount of money to spend to test a theory.

Thanks for any of your thoughts!

Sponsored

 

[Cobra Jet]

Hey all, it's been a long time since I've been on here, but fret not as I still have my Mustang. Part of the reason I've been offline so long is my new project.

I'm doing a resto/rusto-mod 1954 Ford F100. I'm quite a ways away from being done, but I like to have a plan in place many steps ahead to source parts and so forth.

In short, I really like Sync3 (I also have it in my 2017 F150) and I'm a firm believer in a radio having two real dials, so the easy solution of throwing in an aftermarket touchscreen just isn't an option I'm willing to do.

So what I'm trying to do is get Sync3 working. I do not care about getting the reverse camera working. I'd like to be able to still "talk to it" using ForScan. I have the FSM, so I have the various pinouts, but my knowledge of the CAN bus is only theory based and not a practical application.

From what I've been able to find, there are multiple CAN busses (Low, Medium and High Speed) and I seem to remember the bus is sent over a twisted pair wiring, at least for the medium and high speed runs. I had planned on using twisted pair ethernet cables as I don't have a sync3 wiring harness I could use (Of course I could hit up any LKQ pick a part if need be). I know there is the APIM, ACM and FCIM. I seem to remember the busses need to be terminated at the ends with (I believe a 50-ohm resistor).

I guess the main question is this - if I chain the modules together using the twisted pair, and also attach a OBD2 port with the data pins, will it work? I don't know if there are other modules that would need to be there, like a BCM or some sort of central computer/gateway to manage the different CAN busses and/or translate the different busses so that they can talk on the OBD2 connector. From what I've read, the CAN bus is a mesh/point-to-point setup, which to me means every device is "smart enough" to work without a main controller.

I have done some searches and I haven't found anyone that has done this, anytime you use the word "retrofit" you get people going from sync2 to sync3, so I'm not finding anything to answer my questions. I've searched for "building a bench harness", but I haven't found anything related to firing up a sync system on a bench. I'm not knowledgeable in SCADA systems, so I don't have background knowledge there to answer this question. I'm not an EE either, I'm just a curious creature

Of course I could just buy the equipment and try it out, but that's a decent amount of money to spend to test a theory.

Thanks for any of your thoughts!

Try this thread - post #1, post # 25 and post # 26 may help you get started:
https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/some-results-of-can-research.176383/

 

[CrashOverride]

Thank you, I have been watching some youtube videos on scanning the CAN bus with wireshark and it seems that things like switching tracks, volume, etc. all ride on the CAN bus. It's how your steering wheel controls supposedly work.

I'm just trying to figure out the hardware end of it right now. Now I'm wishing I wouldn't have sold my older ACM and bezel because I think I could have tested it.

 

[CrashOverride]

I dug into the FSM and looked at the various pinouts of the modules, and it would appear that there are three "high speed" CAN Busses and one "medium speed". From what I can tell, the audio itself rides on HS3, and the controls are on the MS. The APIM gets HS1, but I'm not sure what it is (read: I need to do more research). From what I can tell HS2 sends (Of many things) the steering wheel controls. The FCIM also controls a lot of non audio stuff, that I don't care about (hazards, HVAC, etc) so I might not actually *need* all of the busses.

I found a post on here (https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/unused-can-connector.121887/) talking about a gateway module (I also found it in the FSM) and this ties all 4 busses together to a single HS CAN bus that is accessed via the OBD2 port. I think if I want to be able to do forscan stuff, I would need that module. The good news, as far as I can tell, is that I do not need the BCM.

I found a video online for troubleshooting and describing how the physical CAN bus works. It is not automotive specific as the CAN bus is used in a lot more than just cars, so I'm not positive if the automotive spec is the same. In either case, each end of the bus is terminated by a 120-ohm resistor, so between the two lines, the overall resistance should be 60 (Since the terminators are in parallel). In their case, they said that some of their devices self-terminate, and it implied that the terminator resistors needed to be changed to keep the bus at 60-ohms. I doubt I'll find that info on each of the modules ford uses. It also mentioned that you want the distance between the device itself (e.g. the APIM -- where it taps into the physical twisted-pair CAN bus) and the physical CAN bus itself to be as short as possible (If the "pigtail"). It was implied if the pigtail distance was small enough, a terminator on the device/module would not be necessary.

Their demonstration was a very short, ~1 meter long "bus" with only two devices and two terminators on it. But they used what looked like normal 18ga wire that they had formed into a twisted pair. It was implied that a shielded twisted pair would be better. The nice thing about ethernet cable is that you can get it STP, and you actually do have four twisted pairs, so if I need to recreate 4 separate busses, I can do it with a single cable.

It will probably be a while before I pull the physical parts to do it, but it is looking more and more like it is doable, however not as simple as a single CAN bus.

 

[Cobra Jet]

I dug into the FSM and looked at the various pinouts of the modules, and it would appear that there are three "high speed" CAN Busses and one "medium speed". From what I can tell, the audio itself rides on HS3, and the controls are on the MS. The APIM gets HS1, but I'm not sure what it is (read: I need to do more research). From what I can tell HS2 sends (Of many things) the steering wheel controls. The FCIM also controls a lot of non audio stuff, that I don't care about (hazards, HVAC, etc) so I might not actually *need* all of the busses.

I found a post on here (https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/unused-can-connector.121887/) talking about a gateway module (I also found it in the FSM) and this ties all 4 busses together to a single HS CAN bus that is accessed via the OBD2 port. I think if I want to be able to do forscan stuff, I would need that module. The good news, as far as I can tell, is that I do not need the BCM.

I found a video online for troubleshooting and describing how the physical CAN bus works. It is not automotive specific as the CAN bus is used in a lot more than just cars, so I'm not positive if the automotive spec is the same. In either case, each end of the bus is terminated by a 120-ohm resistor, so between the two lines, the overall resistance should be 60 (Since the terminators are in parallel). In their case, they said that some of their devices self-terminate, and it implied that the terminator resistors needed to be changed to keep the bus at 60-ohms. I doubt I'll find that info on each of the modules ford uses. It also mentioned that you want the distance between the device itself (e.g. the APIM -- where it taps into the physical twisted-pair CAN bus) and the physical CAN bus itself to be as short as possible (If the "pigtail"). It was implied if the pigtail distance was small enough, a terminator on the device/module would not be necessary.

Their demonstration was a very short, ~1 meter long "bus" with only two devices and two terminators on it. But they used what looked like normal 18ga wire that they had formed into a twisted pair. It was implied that a shielded twisted pair would be better. The nice thing about ethernet cable is that you can get it STP, and you actually do have four twisted pairs, so if I need to recreate 4 separate busses, I can do it with a single cable.

It will probably be a while before I pull the physical parts to do it, but it is looking more and more like it is doable, however not as simple as a single CAN bus.

You're definitely making progress, so if possible keep updating your thread. Any CAN bus info will help others in the future with a similar question or upgrades.

That other thread you have linked is also very good info.

Any pics of the current condition of the F100? Love the old Ford F1 and F100 trucks and the restoration/aftermarket for them is just as huge as that for the Mustang. Good luck with the build!

You're going to laugh, but a few years back I had researched and found where the ORIGINAL Sanford & Son truck went and contacted the owners of it. Have a good correspondence with them, they're great folks and it's in good hands (nope, it's not for sale....).

 

[CrashOverride]

It is in serious disarray right now because I am many steps behind finishing out the interior. I bought it as a rolling chassis/body/VIN but that's it. I bought a 2011 crown vic and stripped it down to a rolling frame (Sold off the 4.6 and trans). [Here's where I get kicked off the board...] I have a built 6L LS engine swapped into the frame, going through a corvette z06 clutch, through a fabbot adapter into an AR5 chevy colorado/hummer/Pontiac Solstice/Polaris Slingshot trans. Then through a conversion u-joint into the massive police-package aluminum driveshaft from the crown vic and into the 8.8 rear. The crown vic was a detective car I think as it had no LSD, so I bought a ford racing unit from the 03-04 "Terminator" mustangs because it has carbon-fibre clutch packs. Finished the diff off with a prayer and a aluminum cover with the preload screws.

Although very likely the trans will be the first to go with the estimated 1000 flywheel HP I'm going for. I went with the LS just because they are so cheap to make big power and tuning is a breeze, and they fit into smaller engine bays better. But trust me, I love the sound of the coyote much, much better.

But anyways, I had to make custom motor mounts, trans mount and I just got the bed mounted to the frame last weekend. The bed has a "hump" in the middle because the 5-link setup of the crown vic (And the vertical gas tank they use) means that section of the frame is pretty high.

(Side note, the crown vic interior/chassis wiring harness itself weighs a good 20-30 pounds in case you've ever wondered how much the wiring weighs in these new cars)

This weekend I hope to mount the cab. But that in itself is going to be a major pain because the crown vic wheelbase is 6" too long, and I refuse to make it a long bed, nor cut the frame, so I am making the cab longer between the firewall and the front door hinge point. Those old trucks had very shallow dashes with very little foot room, so you kind of sat funny, and I like more legroom, so it's going to make it a nicer daily driver.

Every step, every system basically requires modification, but it's a lot of fun and my welding is getting better, and so is my fabrication skills (I'm just a dude with a garage like the rest of us, no lift other than my quickjack, no cnc/mill/lathe stuff.) I'm building it in what I would consider a modern iteration of the old hot-rodding past. Meaning that, for example, the framing I needed for the bed is literally warehouse pallet rack that's been repurposed (Steel costs are exceptionally high right now). The sheet metal is coming from a used truck tool box I bought for dirt cheap...Stuff like that.

I'll definitely keep updating this thread though as I find out more about the sync setup, and I'll try to remember to PM you a pic every now and then.

That's so cool you found the owners of the S&S truck! Glad to hear it's being taken care of. Sounds screwy but it feel nice to revive these old girls and get them back on the road.

This pic is from the ad when I bought it. I do have the grill and other parts (Has the cool 1955 grill with the "V" indent for the v8 emblem).

 

[Yusufsuleman]

You're absolutely right about the benefits of owning a camper. It's like having a cozy home on wheels, allowing us to experience the beauty of nature without sacrificing comfort. The immersion in nature, the cost-effectiveness, and the ability to create cherished memories are all fantastic perks of the camper lifestyle. As you're on the hunt for the perfect camper, it's important to consider factors like budget, size, and layout that suit your needs. Exploring various options, both new and used, is a smart move. And checking out reputable camper dealers, like you mentioned, is key to finding the right fit. So, here's to hitting the open road, chasing sunrises, and making memories that will last a lifetime. And don't forget, if you're ever looking for reliable spare parts for truck, which is a handy option.

Sponsored