C&D Lightning Lap 2018 Results for GT PP2

[EFI]

Oh yeah? Good luck to anyone that takes a none-Shelby on a track day and blows their trans or engine and wants it covered under warranty.

So how would Ford know exactly when you blew up your engine/trans for them to deny coverage? Simply driving your car on a road course does not automatically void your warranty the moment you go past the gate.

Sure they can do some digging around and see that you signed up for a track day, but unless they had a rep there monitoring your engine (like crew chiefs do in NASCAR or F1) there's no way for them to specifically pinpoint the exact moment you did the damage.

You mentioned Shelbys, so do they have a specific portion in the warranty that states damage that occurred on a race track is covered 100%?

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[Mountain376]

So how would Ford know exactly when you blew up your engine/trans for them to deny coverage? Simply driving your car on a road course does not automatically void your warranty the moment you go past the gate.

Sure they can do some digging around and see that you signed up for a track day, but unless they had a rep there monitoring your engine (like crew chiefs do in NASCAR or F1) there's no way for them to specifically pinpoint the exact moment you did the damage.

You mentioned Shelbys, so do they have a specific portion in the warranty that states damage that occurred on a race track is covered 100%?

They can do that, sure. Why many people blur-out their license plate in photos or remove their license plate all together. The dealership can also make a call based on an examination of the car or if someone tells the dealer that they brought the car to a track (trust me, people do that). Another way is if Ford starts looking through data in the modules.

I sent a message to the Ford Chat. You can see what I got, which lines up with what I've been trying to say: You're fine if you have a dealer willing to work with you.

Obviously, that is the general view by Ford and not necessarily Mustang-centered. So, again, I think it comes down to a dealer willing to work with you and looking into what is considered through the implied warranty. Otherwise: "Good luck"

 

[Stuntman]

Go to a dealer thats not full of idiots. HPDE events are not "racing".

 

[Mountain376]

Go to a dealer thats not full of idiots. HPDE events are not "racing".

I used to work with dealers. I will say this, and it is a statement towards all OE's: The quality of the service industry gets worse and worse all the time; the competency of techs is receding and definitely not following the advancements of technology.

 

[jake_zx2]

I sent a message to the Ford Chat. You can see what I got, which lines up with what I've been trying to say: You're fine if you have a dealer willing to work with you.

See, this I agree with. Unfortunately, there are a lot of dealerships who will jump at the opportunity to void your warranty just so that they don’t have to front the bill to fix your broken car (in fact, just saw a story the other day of a guy who’s flywheel bolts backed out and destroyed his clutch, but his dealership voided his warranty due to “rubber buildup” on his rear inner fenders, even though it was just tar from a new road in his neighborhood). As long as you find a dealership that’ll work with you and understands Ford’s interpretation of “racing”, then you’re fine to go to HPDE without your warranty being voided. It’s a shame that certified dealerships can be so sketchy

 

[4V Mayhem]

See, this I don't understand one bit. I've NEVER met a serious track guy who refuses to mod their car. Only people I've ever met who feel that way are the ones who *achem* like to consider themselves "serious track guys" but really just like to tell people that and have only really been to a track about 2 times in their life

There are plenty of racing brackets and organizations that have rules about what can and can't be done to a vehicle and they strictly enforce that. Even some that enforce racing bone stock. Some have strict regulations even on engine displacement, actual vehicle weight, etc. Chances are that if you go to your local dragstrip then you will not see those guys or races. But they are out there. The thing of it is that for a hard core racer, nothing else shows your actual skills more than pushing a stock car to it's limits. Once you throw mods in the mix, well that just murks up the water. That's my interpretation at least. But I can see it both ways. Run what you brung and stock racing.

Go ahead and email Ford, they'll tell ya that. I don't remember exactly where it was stated, as like I said, that was about 4 years ago. Bottom line is, just the other day, I saw email traffic with Ford Performance enforcing exactly what I'm saying. They're performance cars, and Ford wants you to drive the cars as they were intended. as long as you don't competitively race, then you're fine

I've learned not to trust any of these corporations at their word. The stories I've heard regarding warranties being voided and all other silly nonsense over the past 20 some odd years tells me that if they have any reason whatsoever to void your warranty then they will. There is always some loophole or something that they can fall back on. Remember, these companies have teams of people who study these things and know the ins and outs like nobody's business. It might look like plain english to you and I. But there is something somewhere written that says "you're screwed" in big ole words, lol!! I don't take chances. If I'm planning to get a car that I'm going to take to the track and push and enjoy and not be worried, then I'll get a newer Shelby. To me the PP2 GT is just a car that handles really good but is ultimately meant for the streets.

 

[Timeless]

Like everything warranty related it comes down to the dealership you take it to and how friendly they want to be.

Make friends with the service manager (birthday/Christmas gifts help) and you will most likely never have an issue.

 

[Norm Peterson]

They can do that, sure. Why many people blur-out their license plate in photos or remove their license plate all together. The dealership can also make a call based on an examination of the car or if someone tells the dealer that they brought the car to a track (trust me, people do that). Another way is if Ford starts looking through data in the modules.

I sent a message to the Ford Chat. You can see what I got, which lines up with what I've been trying to say: You're fine if you have a dealer willing to work with you.

Obviously, that is the general view by Ford and not necessarily Mustang-centered. So, again, I think it comes down to a dealer willing to work with you and looking into what is considered through the implied warranty. Otherwise: "Good luck"

The general sense I'm getting out of all this goes something like "Ford is not required to cover you for damage caused by racing or driving that approaches racing conditions, but we've provided you with a number of recommendations that should minimize the chance of incurring such damages". "We know that some of you are going to do this, here's some free advice."

IOW, what your Ford Chat guy (and the bracketed information in the "Additional Warranty Information" posted in #69 previously) was saying sounds like Ford's opinion is that the warranty notes are official guidance for reducing the likelihood of incurring such damage rather than official inclusion of such kinds of damage under warranty if the guidance is followed. If that sounds like splitting hairs, that's precisely what lawyers do and warranty text and interpretations are all about. They aren't endorsing racing or driving at a "race pace", just providing advice that was likely developed during their own testing that if you're going to drive at race pace anyway, you need to follow to minimize the risk. Certainly better than no advice at all.


Norm

 

[Eritas]

I agree with you and say the PP2 and the SS 1Le are on par with each other give or take track difference and conditions. Having said that, The SS 1Le is most certainly the better for the track as it is ready to go the distance. Sure you can modify the PP2 for track work but with all the warranty cancelations I have witnessed recently do to modifications (Ford), me personally, I would not take on the modification unless I am willing to cover costs of cancelled warranty. Either way, the PP2 is an amazing bargain as is the SS 1LE. To be honest, most that buy these cars don’t even track them and I believe Ford knows that. Look at recent sales numbers, the new Camaro is a sales flop even with the incredible ZL1 1Le and the 1Le variants. Ford could have added coolers but the GT350 is currently filling as the track variant. PP2 or SS 1LE, both great cars. See below for some lap times for comparison. Between the SS 1LE and the PP2 it is pretty much a wash.

C&D lightning lap VIR-------MT Laguna Seca------Chuckwalla Valley

Mustang GT PP2 2:53.8----1:38.42

Camaro SS 1LE 2:54.8------1:37.78

GT350R 2:51.8------------------1:36.78----------------------1:57.87

GT350------------------------------------------------------------------2:00.82

I'll just quote this so jake_zx2 can stop posting off-topic conversations on the GT500 thread.

Dude, you can't say the GT350 is "3 seconds slower than the GT350R" at Chuckwalla and the PP2 is "2 seconds slower than the GT350R" at VIR and draw the conclusion that the PP2 is faster than the GT350.

Who drove those cars at Chuckwalla? Lightning Lap times should be thrown in the trash and burned for how crappy their drivers are and their test is performed.


I'll take the high road and move this here:

"amateur drivers" don't just casually set lap records at a track. To think these guys are "amateurs" is pathetic, especially coming from someone who so strongly backs "canyon carving".

IIRC, Anderson Composites makes a GT350 hood. Worst case scenario, The Parts Farm is always getting totaled GT350s, I doubt it'd be too hard or expensive to find an OEM hood.

PP2 does put down better numbers. Hell, it put down higher cornering Gs than a 720s! That's on par with the R's numbers! Canyon driving doesn't have to be reckless, but "canyon carving" is inherently reckless, as it's defined as the idea of going beyond the legal speed limit on public roads. Trust me, you won't come ANYWHERE near the "limit" of a GT350 or PP2 anywhere on the street without breaking the speed limit. Those cars would likely handle twice the speed limit on a canyon corner with ease. You DO have to push your car's limit to feel it, that's why its a limit. What you're feeling is your car pushing the maximum lateral Gs that the DOT wants you to experience on the streets (likely not much more than .4 Gs).

It's not a better financial decision at all. Since when has it been a "better financial decision" to spend $60k on a car when you can have something on par with it for $40k? Again, I'm not doubtful at all. I've been looking into buying a new mustang since 2015, and I've had the GT350 on my radar since then. Only reason I didn't buy one was because I wanted to wait and see what the 2018 had to offer, and I'm so glad I did, because it offered MUCH more for my money. I was able to buy my Mustang, my R6, and my jetski and still have a car that with about $5k or so in wheels, tires, and suspension will absolutely blow the doors off of a GT350. I don't give a fuck about resale value, because cars are awful investments, so I plan to keep the car until I (or it) die.

But quick question, if you're oh so set on not derailing this thread, why are you so adamant about responding? It's not like when we get back on subject with the GT500, I'm just going to come in screaming "GT350s SUCKKKKK!!!". So, if you really want to get back on topic, take the L

Their drivers are SECONDS off pro drivers.

I just looked up the hood and it is god-aweful ugly. It does not look anything like a GT350 hood.

I've driven my buddys GT350 and I didn't need to drive it at the limit to realize I liked the handling better than my GT.

You keep missing the financial point. Whether you put the cash down to buy the car outright, or finance it, you'll likely lose more money buying a new GT than a new GT350. Just because you don't want to believe it doesn't make it not true.

Their's nothing wrong with buying a GT. Just quit calling GT350 owners stupid because you didn't buy one.

 

[jake_zx2]

I'll just quote this so jake_zx2 can stop posting off-topic conversations on the GT500 thread.

Dude, you can't say the GT350 is "3 seconds slower than the GT350R" at Chuckwalla and the PP2 is "2 seconds slower than the GT350R" at VIR and draw the conclusion that the PP2 is faster than the GT350.

Who drove those cars at Chuckwalla? Lightning Lap times should be thrown in the trash and burned for how crappy their drivers are and their test is performed.

It wasn't even from this. I've personally seen the same driver at VIR (you know, because I actually go to racetracks instead of "canyon carving") who OWNED a GT350 run within less than 1 second of his GT350 time in a PP1 mustang. I know the GT350 is OVER 3 seconds slower than the R at VIR.

But please tell me, if a GT350 is 3 full seconds slower around a 2 minute track, what HONESTLY makes you think it'll be LESS than 2 seconds slower around a 3 minute track? Where is the GT350 gaining distance over its big brother? Please explain, I can't wait to hear what the "pro canyon carver" has to say about real racing

 

[Eritas]

It wasn't even from this. I've personally seen the same driver at VIR (you know, because I actually go to racetracks instead of "canyon carving") who OWNED a GT350 run within less than 1 second of his GT350 time in a PP1 mustang. I know the GT350 is OVER 3 seconds slower than the R at VIR.

But please tell me, if a GT350 is 3 full seconds slower around a 2 minute track, what HONESTLY makes you think it'll be LESS than 2 seconds slower around a 3 minute track? Where is the GT350 gaining distance over its big brother? Please explain, I can't wait to hear what the "pro canyon carver" has to say about real racing

Was that guy a pro? You can't look at amateur drivers and draw conclusions. Read this:

Read the last 4 paragraphs of page 9 to learn about the problems with these kinds of magazine tests (especially LL):

https://motoiq.com/tested-carbon-revolution-carbon-fiber-wheels/9/

Do not read if you don't want your bubble burst.

 

[jake_zx2]

Was that guy a pro? You can't look at amateur drivers and draw conclusions. Read this:

He was certainly very experienced, enough to be a qualified instructor at the HPDE. But really, as long as the driver knows what they're doing, individual skill doesn't have much impact as it's the same person driving both cars, therefore the same skill level for both cars. If anything, the GT has the disadvantage in that situation, as the person who drove the GT was the owner of the GT350.

And yes, I have read it. In this scenario, those considerations would be splitting hairs on fractions of a second. We're talking FULL seconds here

 

[jake_zx2]

Same day same driver, I could possibly see the GT350 being close to the PP2 at VIR. But I honestly don't see it being faster at all

 

[Eritas]

He was certainly very experienced, enough to be a qualified instructor at the HPDE. But really, as long as the driver knows what they're doing, individual skill doesn't have much impact as it's the same person driving both cars, therefore the same skill level for both cars. If anything, the GT has the disadvantage in that situation, as the person who drove the GT was the owner of the GT350.

And yes, I have read it. In this scenario, those considerations would be splitting hairs on fractions of a second. We're talking FULL seconds here

Lol. So HPDE "qualified instructors" are a couple seconds faster than C&D's KC Coswell and are able to take cars to the limit?

 

[jake_zx2]

Lol. So HPDE "qualified instructors" are a couple seconds faster than C&D's KC Coswell and are able to take cars to the limit?

1. Please quote where I said that he was a couple seconds faster
2. I don't know what's with the quotes around Qualified Instructor, as you typically need a SCCA or NASA certification to be an instructor, which takes hundreds of track hours
3. I like how quickly you switched from "C&D drivers are amateurs!" to "No one could ever match the pure speed of a C&D driver!" to fit your agenda
4. Still waiting on you to answer my initial question...

But please tell me, if a GT350 is 3 full seconds slower around a 2 minute track, what HONESTLY makes you think it'll be LESS than 2 seconds slower around a 3 minute track? Where is the GT350 gaining distance over its big brother? Please explain, I can't wait to hear what the "pro canyon carver" has to say about real racing

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