Beating a dead horse; aftermarket CAI

[BmacIL]

Did you dyno before/after? The last dyno video Alex put out showed the 15-17 and 18 manifolds making with in 1hp of each other, with the only difference being where they peak and the 18 losing some power under the curve.

I didn't, but here is a dyno comparison on the same car, 93 tune from same tuner. Same CAI and Stock exhaust.

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[ManBearPig]

That’s a healthy gain and strong looking graph like you said above what looks to be about 5500.

I know the 2018 CAI is 100mm bigger at the MAF housing. are the 15-17 and 18 CAIs interchangeable aside from that? Do both manifolds use the same TB?

 

[BmacIL]

That’s a healthy gain and strong looking graph like you said above what looks to be about 5500.

I know the 2018 CAI is 100mm bigger at the MAF housing. are the 15-17 and 18 CAIs interchangeable aside from that? Do both manifolds use the same TB?

Same size throttle body but you'll need to use the 15-17 as it's still an analog control vs digital for the 18+. The 18 CAIs fit in the 15-17.

 

[BmacIL]

FYI this is my car on the dyno.

 

[Bluemustang]

@ManBearPig -

Pick up a JLT and ported 2018 intake manifold. The pull from 4k and up is crazy and after 6500 or so it hits a new level. Once you do a pull to 7800 you'll know.

My airflow numbers (MAF lb/min) went from 41-42 on stock airbox, to 44-45 with JLT, to 49.5 @7200rpm (50 at 7800) on 15-17 JLT and 2018 ported manifold. That's a lot more air and more air=power. That combination will net you around 500 crank hp, easily above that if you add E85. The loss down low is barely if noticeable. And I'm being honest. The power it makes at high revs - its intoxicating and 110% worth it. It lets the Coyote breathe, which we already know is designed to make peak power past 7,000 rpm.

Simply put, it will make your car faster. When you get the opportunity to rev it out, the enjoyment factor is well well worth it.

And to answer your question on the CAI, a JLT will for sure make more power up top. The Coyote is meant to breathe, let it out man.

 

[Zelek]

Everything they said. You absolutely will love the 18 manifold with a tune. It's honestly the manifold we should have received stock on 15-17's. You can visually see the larger runners side by side. I went a bit crazy with headers, the CAI, and the ported manifold. Lots of airflow moving.

Hoping to get on the dyno for giggles just to see how everything is coming together.

 

[shogun32]

The "final" gating factor to amount of air that can be ingested is the throttle body and almost nobody changes that. I suspect the tune is "needed" is because with ever increasing diameter of tube you get differences in observed flow rates (aka signals). Ideally you want the smallest tube possible for best velocity while also being able to pull max theoretical CFM thru it at the desired RPM.

A very simplistic calculation:
5000cc/8 * 4 * 7000rpm = 17.5*10^6 cc/min => 618CFM
A 98mm tube would have an observed velocity (MAF) of something like 38.6meter/sec
A 110mm tube 30.7 and a 120mm 25.8. That's why the tune.

What the CAI really are doing is putting a bigger air cleaner on the end. More surface area equals more CFM, holding media constant. So the question becomes given the pressure drop can the filter pass the needed amount of air? If you really want to uncork the engine (assuming no pathological flow issues with stock intake system) take the filter out and use something like air-handler filters. The obvious trade off is level of fine-particle dirt that gets into the engine.

I'll probably create a sandwich filter: screen door mesh on top and a few folds of the blue or green filter batting overlaid with 4mm or so of the white 'foam' sheet.

 

[BmacIL]

Ideally you want the smallest tube possible for best velocity while also being able to pull max theoretical CFM thru it at the desired RPM

Small tube = good low RPM velocity (more torque), but can be restrictive at high RPM
Large tube = may sacrifice some low RPM velocity, but less restrictive at high RPM

You're simplifying the throttle body piece some, as making air converge is easier than diverge, which is why you'll still end up with higher lb/min mass flow into the engine at mid and high RPM with a large MAF diameter. As with everything tuning related, nothing is inherently "better" at everything. It's always a trade-off depending on the desired goals. A big reason for the OEM tube size is the balance between low RPM velocity and high RPM flow.

 

[Zelek]

Is the ID bigger on the stock intake of the 18 versus the 15-17? I'm looking at the one I have and it looked bigger, but I didn't get a chance to actually measure it.

 

[BmacIL]

Is the ID bigger on the stock intake of the 18 versus the 15-17? I'm looking at the one I have and it looked bigger, but I didn't get a chance to actually measure it.

Yes it is. 108 mm vs 95 mm IIRC.

 

[Furious18]

I can’t speak personally but Alex from Lund says that the 18 mani is the best bang for buck on the gen 2. He has mentioned in multiple videos that cold air intakes and throttle bodies won’t add any power. He has said he’s gotten in hot water saying that cai aren’t making any power with the hood closed and actually hurt power via temps

 

[Zelek]

I can’t speak personally but Alex from Lund says that the 18 mani is the best bang for buck on the gen 2. He has mentioned in multiple videos that cold air intakes and throttle bodies won’t add any power. He has said he’s gotten in hot water saying that cai aren’t making any power with the hood closed and actually hurt power via temps

I watched that video as well. He can't say much because they tune for them. There's nothing wrong with the open intakes once you're moving one bit. It's the idle/staging that people do when drag racing where it is not good. I don't go to the drag strip so I'm not too worried about it. I managed to get mine heated up a lot while idle logging and yes, it gets hot.

I still think one of the best setups out there is the Airaid one. I can't believe no one has done a JLT style 120MM closed box intake. That would be the winner in my book.

 

[Furious18]

I watched that video as well. He can't say much because they tune for them. There's nothing wrong with the open intakes once you're moving one bit. It's the idle/staging that people do when drag racing where it is not good. I don't go to the drag strip so I'm not too worried about it. I managed to get mine heated up a lot while idle logging and yes, it gets hot.

I still think one of the best setups out there is the Airaid one. I can't believe no one has done a JLT style 120MM closed box intake. That would be the winner in my book.

Yeah, I get the same impression. He’s mentioned it so many different videos but I think he’s avoiding saying they are a waste of money.

Edit- The fact he put a stock 18 on his car (because it mated to the 18 manifold lines) says a lot. He would have added an after market if it worked better.

 

[Zelek]

Yeah, I get the same impression. He’s mentioned it so many different videos but I think he’s avoiding saying they are a waste of money.

For the difference in power, he's not wrong. You definitely get a LOT more performance out of swapping the manifold versus the air intake. I feel like all three items (Headers, Manifold, Air Intake) work quite well together when they are all there. Not separately one at a time comparing versus stock. The whole idea is to get the engine breathing better, right?

 

[Furious18]

For the difference in power, he's not wrong. You definitely get a LOT more performance out of swapping the manifold versus the air intake. I feel like all three items (Headers, Manifold, Air Intake) work quite well together when they are all there. Not separately one at a time comparing versus stock. The whole idea is to get the engine breathing better, right?

I think that ford has figured out an equivalent efficient air intake as the aftermarket. It’s definitely a cheaper way to make more power for ford compared to other items, just like to us.

I think throttle body and cai is efficient enough, kinda thing. If you breath through a straw, it takes extra energy. If the diameter is large (efficient) enough making it larger won’t help anything because you can’t Ingest anymore air, no matter how little resistance the tube has.

I think the 18 intake manifold (cj and as well) is slightly more efficient (10whp or so) but more importantly shifts the power band to the right. That’s where you’re actually gaining.

Ford seems to have learned from what the aftermarket used to do. Look at their exhaust manifolds. They are pretty god damn good for factory. I have long tubes but I bet they really don’t make much more of a difference as just removing the cats. As manufacturers get better, all we will have is adding power adders, removing emissions and things that wear (tires and fuel as an example). Every generation of cars has less and less bolts on parts that make a difference outside of that.

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