BBQ tick and oil change oil starvation

[accel]

I know that. The problem is, the tick does exist with some of the earlier 5.0L engines, but is most present with the new version. However, the block design and oil passages of this new version is basically identical. The only real change is the PTWA cylinders, and additional DI system. The oil system however, is the same. If this number of engine ticks was a result of oil starvation, it would have been just as prevalent in the original motors. My bet is timing issues creating knock that eventually causes damage, or possibly bad bearings from the get go.

If you google, you'll see that this issue on Mustang and F-150 5.0 was initially very-very often associated with the first oil change.

If you really like to figure what the tick was you cannot ignore that history.

It is relatively recent trend for engines to have the tick before the oil change. My 2017 is one of those that ticked from the very beginning.

I wonder if this was a result of preparations for 2018+ generation with engine factory re-tooling. Late 2017 engines might be subject to some of the new processes. Obviously they did not swap the line in one hour.

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[GT Pony]

I wonder how they foll engine with oil initially at the factory.

Probably with a pressurized "pre-oiler" to ensue oil is everywhere throughout the oiling system before firing up the engine for the first time. And I'm sure they also use "assemble lube" on all the critical parts to ensure they are safe on initial start-up.

 

[BmacIL]

Another quote from liqui moly website:

"MoS2 oil additive is specially formulated to significantly extend the life of your engine (especially if it ever suffers a momentary loss in oil pressure)".

I am not a big fan of oil additives, but it really sounds like it does not hurt to add it several hundred miles before the oil change, then it might help to protect during engine start along with oil filter prefill.

I'm going to keep using it, that's for sure. Plenty of positive not placebo things I've seen with it.

 

[Roger Blose]

I have always pre-filled the oil filter to speed up the oil pressure in the engine. With the 10 quarts, a standard factory oil cooler, and a tall engine block, there are a lot of places that are waiting for oil pressure in the whole system at start up. I have an Feb. 18 build date and so far so good.

 

[accel]

interesting post on coyote lubrication from here https://www.svtperformance.com/threads/2012-coyote-spun-rod-bearing.1123637/

The Coyote, like any other modular, is extremely dependent on oil control. In general the Modular line of Ford engines is OK with oil control, but not the best. There is a significant amount of oil that gets wrapped up in the air around the crankshaft at high RPM.

The engine itself has roughly 2qts of oil lubricating it at all times. Another 1/4-1/2 in the filter and oil cooler (if equipped).
These engines hold 8qts total, so we should have 5.5-6qts of oil in the sump at all times during normal driving conditions, and we do until the crank windage at high RPM holds the oil in suspension. Ford modulars push the oil/air mix forward thru the holes in the main webbing of the block into the front timing cover where lower windage allows the oil/air to separate and drain back into the sump. It's not a bad way to do it, but you do need to realize there is at least 3qts of oil wrapped around the crankshaft mixed with the air (windage) at higher RPM's.
That's 2.5qts of oil in the engine and 3qts stuck in suspension at high RPM, which leaves 2.5 in the sump for the oil pump to pick up. Running these engines 2 qts low on oil will take out bearings quickly. And due to the high amount of windage and the placement of the PCV without any baffles under the valve cover, we all know how much oil the engine can suck into the manifold under heavy compression braking after a high RPM blast.

Another contributing factor is the air/oil mix takes time to separate, the oil in the sump at high RPM has a lot of air in it, reducing the lubricity of the oil getting pumped thru the engine.

For more detailed explanation see here: (start with post 95)
http://www.modularfords.com/threads/126692-Coyote-4-valve-5-0/page7

 

[mustang charlie]

I cannot help but keep thinking about connection between oil change and bbq tick. I know there are users who had tick even before the change (me included), but still there's plenty of those who get it right after the oil change.

A lot of talks regarding different kinds of oil but with no outcome.

So what if coyote is very sensitive to temporary oil starvation that happens every oil change.

Some coyote engines are more under danger than others depending on actual tolerances, but every oil change is a challenge.

If you drain oil properly, how much time does it require the pump to refill the system completely upon first engine startup right after the change? That's with tick happening in the end of oil passage - cyl 3 and 4 at passenger side.

I was reading liqui moly mos2 oil additive description and found this :

"MoS2 was originally developed to maintain lubrication in piston-driven aircraft engines in the event of a loss in oil pressure and to prevent complete engine seizure."

So I wonder if adding that oil additive shortly before oil change might minimize or eliminate the risk of damage?

I think that's a good idea , I wish with this oil starvation on start up or cold starts after oil change that they may have to install an oil pre lube system , there may be some out there , I know there are pre lube systems on the larger 5 to 8000 CID industrial engines in the oil and gas field super large compressor engines.

 

[accel]

I've changed oil twice. Both times with the front wheels on 6" wood blocks, so the front end is up off the ground a bit. It's perfect for draining the pan with the drain bolt on the back side. I let the oil drain ~2 hours (from the pan and filter mount with filter removed) while things cool off and I do a bunch of other checks or work. I pre-fill the oil filter as much as possible.

It takes ~3 seconds on initial start-up to see "Normal" oil pressure on the dash. I feel there is no oil starvation going on with the way I do an oil change. No more than millions of other engines see with an oil and filter change. My engine has been pretty quiet since the day I bought the car, and sounds even a little quieter with that 5W-30 I'm now running.

On my last oil change with pre-filled oil filter I was watching oil pressure gauge. It was more like 5-7 seconds for pressure to reach stable point.

 

[mustang charlie]

That's unacceptable 5 to 6 seconds before oil gets up to those cams and rockers and main and rod bearings, but I did find some pre - lube units for gas engines out there for the ones who want them , https://www.hotrod.com/articles/0808sr-oil-cans/ , http://www.oilamatic.com/ , http://www.modernoils.com/AMK_Amsoil_PreOiler.html ,https://www.globalspec.com/industrial-directory/12_volt_gear_oil_pump, http://www.engine-knocking.com/pictures.html ,

 

[mustang charlie]

Doesn't the 5.0 have a ignition shut off before it see's oil pressure ?

 

[Condor1970]

I just don't understand why everyone is so worried about this. The Coyote engine using high quality synthetic oil, will last 200,000-300,000 miles of "normal" use. The film strength of today's synthetic oils leave an excellent film, more than long enough to start the engine and get full oil flow. They actually think about this stuff when they engineer oils. The only time a pre-oiling system really pays off is for engines that sit dormant for long periods of time. For most normal people who drive their vehicles every day, or even once every couple weeks, it's simply not a concern.

Seriously, take an old engine from the junkyard that's been sitting outside for a year and pull the cam cover off. If it had half decent oil before being left to sit, it will have a sticky film covering everything. That's basically oil that has slowly evaporated all of the distillates, leaving behind what is essentially a thin layer of grease. Even then, it would be enough to protect the engine for a few seconds if you cranked it over to start after being laid up for so long. OK, that might be pushing it, but I think you all get my point.

Firearms are the same way. A good layer of oil on all moving parts will stay there for a long time (years), and allow hundreds of rounds to be fired before you may need to clean and oil it again. If oil was that bad, I would hate to tell the bad guy to wait a few minutes while I oil my gun so I can defend myself.

 

[GT Pony]

On my last oil change with pre-filled oil filter I was watching oil pressure gauge. It was more like 5-7 seconds for pressure to reach stable point.

Maybe your oil pump lost some of it's prime. But even at 5~7 seconds without full oil pressure isn't going to smoke a motor. Guess you could try the "push the gas pedal to the floor and crank" procedure until oil pressure is seen. But as mentioned before, even doing that the engine parts are still moving against each other even though the engine is just cranking over from the starter.

 

[mustang charlie]

I just don't understand why everyone is so worried about this. The Coyote engine using high quality synthetic oil, will last 200,000-300,000 miles of "normal" use. The film strength of today's synthetic oils leave an excellent film, more than long enough to start the engine and get full oil flow. They actually think about this stuff when they engineer oils. The only time a pre-oiling system really pays off is for engines that sit dormant for long periods of time. For most normal people who drive their vehicles every day, or even once every couple weeks, it's simply not a concern.

Seriously, take an old engine from the junkyard that's been sitting outside for a year and pull the cam cover off. If it had half decent oil before being left to sit, it will have a sticky film covering everything. That's basically oil that has slowly evaporated all of the distillates, leaving behind what is essentially a thin layer of grease. Even then, it would be enough to protect the engine for a few seconds if you cranked it over to start after being laid up for so long. OK, that might be pushing it, but I think you all get my point.

Firearms are the same way. A good layer of oil on all moving parts will stay there for a long time (years), and allow hundreds of rounds to be fired before you may need to clean and oil it again. If oil was that bad, I would hate to tell the bad guy to wait a few minutes while I oil my gun so I can defend myself.

good point , but then why do we after an over haul all ways pre lube engines before we start them ? my stang is stored on a 4 point hoist all winter , so I think ill just pull the ignition fuse and crank it till I get oil pressure, I know that piston air craft engines pre lube before they run fuel to them , they call it no load start, doing this just mite save me a $ 10 grand over haul, so there must be air locks when these people change there oil and get a tick right after oil change , I do fill my oil filter ,and have 20000 km on my 2015 and no ticks , I was a large diesel mechanic but retired now , they all had pre lube pumps on them, just sayin buddy ,an ounce of prevention is key to longevity

 

[mustang charlie]

Maybe your oil pump lost some of it's prime. But even at 5~7 seconds without full oil pressure isn't going to smoke a motor. Guess you could try the "push the gas pedal to the floor and crank" procedure until oil pressure is seen. But as mentioned before, even doing that the engine parts are still moving against each other even though the engine is just cranking over from the starter.

That's a good idea thanks , the bearings float in oil when running , when starting with out flow all you have is a static layer which may shear through the film under a load when the piston fires before oil flows through , may cause damage . I lived in the Yukon as a mechanic and have seen many turned bearing as well as wiped bearings, that's when they put in pan heaters after the fact, but thanks you gave me a good starting procedure to bring up oil pressure before firing the cylinders and loading the bearings before oil flows through them , thanks , Ill try that buddy

 

[Zinc03svt]

Imo using the accelerator to the floor after oil changes and extended time non starts is a pretty easy way to help the motor get a little more lubrication before firing up. Starters are cheaper than short blocks. I’m incredibly stupid though. .

 

[Condor1970]

good point , but then why do we after an over haul all ways pre lube engines before we start them ? my stang is stored on a 4 point hoist all winter , so I think ill just pull the ignition fuse and crank it till I get oil pressure, I know that piston air craft engines pre lube before they run fuel to them , they call it no load start, doing this just mite save me a $ 10 grand over haul, so there must be air locks when these people change there oil and get a tick right after oil change , I do fill my oil filter ,and have 20000 km on my 2015 and no ticks , I was a large diesel mechanic but retired now , they all had pre lube pumps on them, just sayin buddy ,an ounce of prevention is key to longevity

They pre-lube engines after overhaul. because many parts that get installed have little to no lubrication on them at all. That thin layer of oil they put on is no different than if you had previously ran the engine, and left a nice layer of oil all over everything before starting again.

The primary reason for the tick after the first oil change, is because the carbon build up in the oil is cushioning the cylinder walls and bearings to some extent. Personally, I think the tick is mainly piston slap at low load and low temps where there is max clearance for the piston skirt to rock and impact the cylinder wall. That's why the tick tends to go away as the oil ages after a couple thousand miles, only to return again after the next oil change. Ford used to have an additive called XL-17, to help cushion parts and quiet the engine. It was basically just carbon powder in some mineral oil.

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