Base suspension + Sticky tires + Autocross = disaster?

[MRGTX]

At my second or third autocross event (many moons ago) someone rented a Focus hatch to run at the event. They had mounted their own set of slicks just for laughs or whatever...the result was that the guy actually rolled the car on the course, on flat pavement. The driver was fine, aside from whatever financial mess this created.

Yes, I realize that this is an extreme example with a car with a high CG... but it stuck with me that stock spring rates and sticky tires can be a very bad idea. It seems plausible that an S550 as a heavy car, relatively high ride height, soft springs, and sticky tires could be a mess even if it's not dangerous like the Focus was.

Has anyone tried this? How did it go?

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[VisceralSyn]

Sorta, I installed the Ford Performance Street handling pack, and ran an Auto-X on the stock wheels on a base 2017 Mustang GT. I can see where had I left the stock suspension on, there would have been a metric ton, of body roll.

edit: A strut tower brace may help the front ARB with the body roll..

 

[bnightstar]

Yes, I realize that this is an extreme example with a car with a high CG... but it stuck with me that stock spring rates and sticky tires can be a very bad idea. It seems plausible that an S550 as a heavy car, relatively high ride height, soft springs, and sticky tires could be a mess even if it's not dangerous like the Focus was.

Has anyone tried this? How did it go?

Even the PP1 suspension is not hard enough for running full slick tires on a fast track with fast corners. Track Mustangs run like 800 lbs springs so they can control the roll on slicks.

 

[Stang55]

Minor mods go a long way, springs, max performance summer tires, good pads and the rest is enjoyment.

 

[Norm Peterson]

edit: A strut tower brace may help the front ARB with the body roll.

Not really . . .


Norm

 

[XS]

Sorry, I'm still hung up that someone totaled a rental car at a race track. No insurance is covering that....
That said, the S550s are much wider cars than the focus. I think you would be fine as long as you eased into it, to feel how the car reacts to the course. But I'm also used to driving trucks almost exclusively throughout my life, and I would hoon them through the canyons where I lived without a second thought. Overall, the point is don't go full send with a setup you're not very, very, familiar with, and you'll be fine.

 

[MRGTX]

Sorry, I'm still hung up that someone totaled a rental car at a race track. No insurance is covering that....
That said, the S550s are much wider cars than the focus. I think you would be fine as long as you eased into it, to feel how the car reacts to the course. But I'm also used to driving trucks almost exclusively throughout my life, and I would hoon them through the canyons where I lived without a second thought. Overall, the point is don't go full send with a setup you're not very, very, familiar with, and you'll be fine.

That rollover was nuts. I was still pretty jittery about wrecking the car that had to get me to work (and still had a couple years left on the loan!) which is extremely unlikely on 99% of autocross courses that you'll ever drive but seeing that crash didn't help my nerves! Yeah...I wonder if the guy had to buy the car outright. I wish I knew the rest of that story. This happened in 2002 or thereabouts in CT.

Your point about not going full send is very good advice. Even though I've gone through every nut and bolt of the suspension on my Dodge and I've upgraded almost everything, I suspect I drive it the way you drive your trucks, hooning something that was never meant to be hooned. You just instinctively know the limits of the machine and have as much fun as possible in the space below that limit.

 

[XS]

That rollover was nuts. I was still pretty jittery about wrecking the car that had to get me to work (and still had a couple years left on the loan!) which is extremely unlikely on 99% of autocross courses that you'll ever drive but seeing that crash didn't help my nerves! Yeah...I wonder if the guy had to buy the car outright. I wish I knew the rest of that story. This happened in 2002 or thereabouts in CT.

Your point about not going full send is very good advice. Even though I've gone through every nut and bolt of the suspension on my Dodge and I've upgraded almost everything, I suspect I drive it the way you drive your trucks, hooning something that was never meant to be hooned. You just instinctively know the limits of the machine and have as much fun as possible in the space below that limit.

I know what you mean. I've seen a few accidents that to the untrained eye (mine) looked like freak accidents, whether it's autocross, drag strip, etc. It leaves you with that, what if, feeling. But that's not a bad feeling to have, kind of keeps your confidence in check.
Hahah sometimes that's the most fun, driving the unassuming vehicle to the max. I have a damn old '99 Durango with 200k miles and I'll be laughing my ass off tossing it around the curves as crap in the back flies back and forth and my cup holder inserts pop out. I don't ever recall laughing my ass off in the Mustang, although it is still a lot of fun to drive spiritedly.
Not to derail the thread, but real quick, is the 5.9 in your Dart an LA block? Did you keep it fuel injected? I'm having trouble finding good 5.9 long blocks for my Durango because it's almost that time... you know..

 

[Dana Pants]

Define “sticky tires.” The biggest risk you have is destroying the outsides of the front tires. The car won’t roll.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Sorry, I'm still hung up that someone totaled a rental car at a race track. No insurance is covering that....

MrGTX isn't the only one here who has seen a car roll at autocross. I've seen it too (car ended up on its roof), and I'm pretty sure that the car involved was also a Focus.

Contributing to the incident was a particularly unwise choice of tires coupled with driver error (lost it toward the end of a slalom so not even going very fast; the driver should have just thrown the run away with an off-course).


Norm

 

[kz]

At my second or third autocross event (many moons ago) someone rented a Focus hatch to run at the event. They had mounted their own set of slicks just for laughs or whatever...the result was that the guy actually rolled the car on the course, on flat pavement. The driver was fine, aside from whatever financial mess this created.

Yes, I realize that this is an extreme example with a car with a high CG... but it stuck with me that stock spring rates and sticky tires can be a very bad idea. It seems plausible that an S550 as a heavy car, relatively high ride height, soft springs, and sticky tires could be a mess even if it's not dangerous like the Focus was.

Has anyone tried this? How did it go?

I've ran non PP '15 Mustang (which most definitely has soft suspension) for year and half with RE-71Rs in autocross. Almost hit a light pole after a spin but never got even a single wheel up.
I was very very inexperienced (back in '15 it was my first autocross ever in that car - initially with Bridgestones S-04 Pole Postion and later with RE-71Rs).

I've seen my fair share of autocross accidents (unfortunately), most recently a Focus that ended up on the roof (pretty sure a different one than yours). Roll overs are rare. FiST / Abarth 500 is what is most likely to end up upside down. Mustangs - very very improbable.

 

[Steve68Cougar]

I saw a fully prepped '79 Mustang roll during an autocross back in the '90s. He was on full slicks and hit a crack in the concrete just right while trying to cut a corner. It was a bit surreal. That's the only Mustang that I've seen get remotely close to rolling. I've seen a number of cars (Fiesta ST, VW Golf, Honda CRX, etc) pick up a rear tire regularly. I think it would take something extraordinary for an S550 to have an issue like that.

 

[NightmareMoon]

Throwing Hoosiers on a stock suspension car is a waste of good Hoosiers, but any DoT legal streetable 100-200TW tire will basically just be good fun.

Yeah, you'd want more camber to make the tires last, and of course the base car is too soft to make full advantage of sticky tires, but great tires still beat suspension mods.

On an autox or track, with a good driver, I'd take a set of fresh Hoosier A7s and a base GT over any $$$$ suspension you can throw at the chassis and the same size MP4S tires.

 

[K4fxd]

I put Hoosiers on a stock base 17 gt just for shits and grins. All I managed to do was burn up the base brakes.

Car stuck like ketchup on a white shirt.

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