AutoX Noob with questions

[Ugly John]

As the title says - I'm a total noob to this. I went to my first autox last weekend and had a blast.

I'm driving a V6 with an automatic. I know almost everyone else in this section are running either GT's or EB's, but they all seem to have the performance pack. It seems like much of the discussion doesn't really apply to my car.

First - I know I don't have the fastest car out there. I'm not looking to win. But I am looking to drive well, and get my car set up to run well. I'm not really worried about what class I end up in, but FS seems ok for now.

I'm looking at upgrading to a GT in a year or so when the ex gets re-married (please please please please let that happen!), so I don't want to dump a lot of money into this car.

I'm running the 235/50R18 stock Goodyear tires, but I am looking to upgrade when these wear out. I'd rather not buy another set of wheels, so I would need a good road tire that would also work on the track. Suggestions are appreciated. I am planning on going to a 255/45 tire.

The car seemed to really plow thru the corners. I'm sure a lot of it was me not being smooth and carrying too much speed into the corners, but even when I slowed down it seemed like I had massive understeer. I'm considering getting a Steeda or BMR rear sway bar, then performing the mod on the front sway bar by drilling a hole (there is a thread in the suspension section). Does this sound like a reasonable plan? It would let me play with the rear stiffness with the 3 settings, and modify the front to basically match the softest rear setting.

Based on info I grabbed from here and other sites, I ran 40 psi on the fronts, and 39 on the rear. After running it didn't look like the rears were running on the edges much, but the fronts definitely were.

Would grabbing a set of used PP shocks and struts from the classifieds here be worth the money and effort to change them out? I'm at 26k miles, so an alignment is in my near future anyway.

I've considered lowering springs, but I'm reading different things about them, and I'm not sure if pairing them with the OEM shocks would work well. This would be pretty far down on my list with the expense on top of everything else here.

The next race is in 3 weeks, so any suggestions on these or other areas would be appreciated!

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[SteveW]

Hey, welcome to autocross and I think you're on the right track with your thoughts above.

For tires in the size you listed there are two that jump out to me: Bridgestone Potenza S-04 and Continental ExtremeContact DW. If you drop down to a 255/40 you can fit the Bridgestone RE71R tire and that is one of the two top street tires out right now. It isn't nearly the everyday street tire the others are though.

For sway bars in FS you can only modify or replace one of them. So, replacing the rear bar (highly recommended for FS) and drilling new holes in the front is not allowed. You can only do one or the other so, get a bigger rear bar.

Regarding plowing through turns...think of it as always driver induced. You are simply exceeding the available traction on the front tires by entering turns too fast. You can fix that by slowing down more before the turn and enough that you can be back on the gas just before the apex.

You can also improve front grip with alignment (max neg camber you can get and try up to .20 deg toe out) and it is likely a bigger rear bar with reduce body roll and change to a more balanced car in the turns.

I would wait on shocks until the Konis are available, which is supposed to be real soon. Those should be far superior to PP shocks and would be adjustable.

Hope this helps!

 

[Static_LV]

First, let me say this. Welcome to autocross, it is fun, frustrating, potentially expensive, and rewarding. Having just run for the first time, there are all kinds of improvements you want to make to your car. You have just seen all kinds of crazy modified cars and stock class cars that push the envelope and your competitive nature is getting all hyper about it. Now take a breath

Autocross, like all other racing comes with a rulebook, things that can and can't be done.
In your current classing in FS your car isn't going to be competitive. That's ok. This is a learning season anyway. Since you are looking to have some fun and learn this season and keep things on a budget, I would look at CAM-C as a classing. You can do almost any crazy thing you want in this class so lets look at what makes sense.

The biggest single change you can make is in the tires.
I would look for some of the 18x8 stock wheels that someone has taken off and get some decent rubber for them. The Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R's are the hot autocross tires right now and can be had in a 255/40R18. This is a 26" overall diameter so it will drop your overall COG by just over 1/2" over stock. These are also stickier and have a stiffer sidewall over stock which you should be able to tune with pressure to get a more neutral platform.
Take this with a grain of salt as this is what I have found on my GT with a staggered setup, but I have been running the rears ~4-6 PSI lower than fronts. Maybe someone has some better pressure advice on a square setup.

Another tire related thing you can do is to find a set of GT PP takeoffs and just run those for track day. Again, not an optimal setup, but they can be found pretty inexpensively. On the good side, if you do get a GT PP next year, you can move back into FS and you already have a set of extra track wheels that you can put good rubber on.

Other cheap things you can do are to slot the front struts according to the TSB and get ~2-3* of camber in the front. You can look around at some of the alignment threads here that will give you some good ideas about where to start.
I wouldn't mess with the sway bars right now. Do the simple things first and see how it works out.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Seat time, tires, everything else.

There is a limit to how much tire grip you have, so if you're still on the brakes when you're developing much cornering force, the combination of forces will turn your front tires into implements better suited to snow clearing operations.

For zero cost, try a little less pressure and more front vs rear difference. Maybe something like 37f / 33-34r?

Turn off AdvanceTrak completely (also zero cost). Its default strategy is understeer. You may have to learn countersteering to 'catch' some tailhappiness from time to time, but that's part of the game. Not to mention being a useful thing to have some skill at.

For cheap, there are ways of holding yourself in the driver seat better other than all-out harnesses (CG lock, supplemental non-slacking seat belts, chest straps), so you're using the steering wheel more to steer the car with and less as a grab handle to stay put in the seat. Learn to relax any muscles not directly involved with vehicle control - tensing up tends to lift weight off of the seat making it easier to slide around.

For relatively cheap, get a more cornering-oriented alignment. I'm not sure what you can legally get (there is an official Ford procedure, detailed in other threads), or even what works best for this chassis, but -2° up front won't be too much. Rear can and probably should be a little less negative than the front, especially with the V6 where power-induced oversteer isn't quite as easy to come by (you can take advantage of having a slightly "looser" setup than the GT with less risk of spinning).


It's likely that your V6 won't stay in FS.

Change Proposals
Street
#17283 Rethinking Street Classing
- Move from FS to DS:
Ford
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Mustang V6 (2011-2016)
[FONT=Arial,Arial]Mustang EcoBoost (2015-2016)
[/FONT][/FONT]

Norm

 

[JeepN3RD]

Just another thought, I believe I just saw they are looking at re-classing the v6 into another class. There is another thread on that here, but you will be a bit more competitive in that class! Ok, edit to add this from the other thread.

FS to DS:...
Ford
Mustang V6 (2011-2016)
Mustang EcoBoost (2015-2016)

 

[Norm Peterson]

Not sure when that becomes effective - it reads like it's for the 2017 season. Though I suppose it could be made effective sooner if it comes out as a Tech Bulletin.


Norm

 

[Static_LV]

It just came out in FastTrack as a recommendation for the 2017 season.
Not sure if this is going to happen or not. There will probably be a lot of letters written to the SEB for and against the proposal and it may or may not happen.
Right now I am leaning towards it occurring but what I know about the inner working of the SEB is probably less than nothing

 

[Norm Peterson]

Agreed.

And there is some precedent for splitting the V6 versions of both the Mustang and the Camaro off to a different class from the V8 versions (the sixxers went to G Stock, according to the 2003 rules).


Norm

 

[Ugly John]

Thanks for the advice guys.

So I'm thinking my car could use an alignment since it has almost 30k miles on it and it feels a bit .... weird. Obviously with 30k miles it's my DD.

I stopped by my favorite tire shop, and they will align to any specs I want. They have the factory specs, but they will mod to what I say I want.

So what are good specs to shoot for without taking the struts apart to slot them? Will they be able to get any negative camber up front or is that fixed without slotting? Suggestions on toe for the front? I'm thinking any negative camber I can get (if any) and zero toe. Reasonable?

What about the back?

I'll be changing pressures to 37F/33R. I'm still running stock everything though, so no sway bar or anything.

When I get the rear sway bar, should I change the alignment specs any?

 

[Norm Peterson]

For F-Street anyway, the only class-legal way of achieving more negative camber is to do the strut mod.

If adding a rear bar makes the car too "loose" for you, you might want to set rear camber a bit further negative. Do the sixxer cars come with no rear bar? (seems odd for an IRS car)


Norm

 

[Ugly John]

It has a rear bar, but reading thru here it sounds like it could use to be stiffer to get rid of a bit of the understeer I was seeing. In another thread I started (in the suspension section) a Strano bar was suggested if I was just doing the rear, as the other bars (Steeda, Eibach, BMR) are too stiff to be used alone and not as a set, or without at least stiffening up the front by doing the mod to the factory bar.

I want to say that the V6 sway bars are actually the same as the GT bars (I could be mistaken there...), but they are not comparable at all to the PP bars .

Most of the aftermarket sway bars are compared to the PP bars, so changing my rear stock bar to a Steeda would be too stiff and get me into an oversteer problem - not good at all for a DD.

 

[daltron]

First - I know I don't have the fastest car out there. I'm not looking to win. But I am looking to drive well, and get my car set up to run well. I'm not really worried about what class I end up in, but FS seems ok for now.

It's all about having fun! One of the funnest times in my life I can remember was running autocross in a Chevy supplied FWD Cobalt, don't worry about other more expensive cars, just have fun!

I'm running the 235/50R18 stock Goodyear tires, but I am looking to upgrade when these wear out. I'd rather not buy another set of wheels, so I would need a good road tire that would also work on the track. Suggestions are appreciated. I am planning on going to a 255/45 tire.

If budget orientated, Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Positions or Nitto NT555 G2's would be a HUGE upgrade. If you wanted an even better street tire, you can never go wrong with Michelin Pilot Super Sports.

 

[lizardman]

Check out the Apex EC-7 wheel. They will fit over the 15-16 Brembo's and the 9" and 9.5" are on sale now. Tire rack has the R-S3's at a good price. Combine the two for a track day setup and save your stock tires to get you to work on Monday. With that combo you will have an unsprung weight savings that will help everything. The key to driving faster is seat time. The more you drive the better you will get. The best way to get the most seat time on a budget is to manage your consumables (Tires, Brakes, Fluid, etc.). Whatever you decide to do make a plan.

 

[NightmareMoon]

The EC-7 would be my choice for track days, but it isn't available in the correct offsets for F Street autox. Sad, but true.

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