Autocross/daily driver questions

Steve68Cougar

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I wonder how good the FR3A suspension system would be. I have the S197 version on my '08 Bullitt and have been very happy with it. They show that it has been standard equipment on the Shelby Super Snake and Hertz cars. It seems to get pretty good reviews.

I'm tempted with the Shelby/Penske setup, but it costs more than the first 3 Mustangs I had combined.

 

blind*guardian

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I would suggest to take a look at the Bilstein B16 coil overs as a good option for autocross and daily. I am no autocross expert, have less than 10 events under my belt, but I can’t complain about their behavior. There’s minimal dive or body roll on the stiffest settings and it’s quite livable on the street for daily duty. The price to performance seems good with them too.
 

NightmareMoon

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I don't mind it being stiffer on the street, but I don't want it to be uncomfortable. Do you have any shocks in mind that you think would work better for the DR springs? Again, I think adjustability is key for my purposes.

"Having ridden in a car with even stiffer front springs and higher quality monotube shocks, there is a very noticeable difference"
-What specifically do you mean here? Better all around, or better on the street or autox? I have seen in the CAM-C thread that people think the DR front rates are too low, but I'm not really building a dedicated CAM-C car. It'll just fit nicely there, and I'll probably still get beat by our top FS guy.. He's good.
i don’t know any better shocks than the Steeda adjustibles or konis that work with regulat springs. If I did, I’d be running them. The next step up is to expensive coilovers.

On course they’re fine. You won’t notice any ride quality issues. On the street you’ll feel most if not all of the little bumps in the road. Better shocks used in some expensive coilovers do a better job of dampening the little stufff on the street.

I get pretty darn good results with the “too soft” front DR rates. Spring rate is a compromise. One rate may not match all driving styles. Its almost a moot point tho because they are the stiffest spring option for sale that isn’t a coilover. My DR equipped car (along with other parts) is balanced and easy to drive (according to multiple codrivers)
 
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BlackPlague

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not at all true. A coilover ALLOWS you to do a rebuild every year or two instead of having to throw the whole damn thing into the trash. Unless the Coilover supplier's anodizing is total crap unlike the traditional strut which is heavily painted.

The Ohlins use chromed sliders and have multiple seals and other weather coatings so corrosion isn't your problem. I would still run the mud/grime guards but you're blowing it way out of proportion.

I live daily with the DR springs and if all you use your car for is track/cross you should be plenty happy. For street use they are an acquired taste.
Are you sure you're not an Ohlins salesman? :cwl:
Your feedback is appreciated though, it clears up my worries about going coilovers.

I would suggest to take a look at the Bilstein B16 coil overs as a good option for autocross and daily. I am no autocross expert, have less than 10 events under my belt, but I can’t complain about their behavior. There’s minimal dive or body roll on the stiffest settings and it’s quite livable on the street for daily duty. The price to performance seems good with them too.
These are on sale at TireRack right now, but I can't find any info on the spring rates.

i don’t know any better shocks than the Steeda adjustibles or konis that work with regulat springs. If I did, I’d be running them. The next step up is to expensive coilovers.

On course they’re fine. You won’t notice any ride quality issues. On the street you’ll feel most if not all of the little bumps in the road. Better shocks used in some expensive coilovers do a better job of dampening the little stufff on the street.

I get pretty darn good results with the “too soft” front DR rates. Spring rate is a compromise. One rate may not match all driving styles. Its almost a moot point tho because they are the stiffest spring option for sale that isn’t a coilover. My DR equipped car (along with other parts) is balanced and easy to drive (according to multiple codrivers)
DR still sounds pretty attractive to me. Like half the price of the Ohlins too.


I'm not totally sure what I'm gonna do yet, but likely DR with camber plates and maybe upgrade to coilovers when I feel I've maxed out their potential (and my wallet and wife say it's ok)

I appreciate all the help from everyone, I don't have any more burning questions at the moment
 

shogun32

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I've sold and revalved piles of ohlins, nitron, jri, matris, wilbers, and ktech suspension.

If you were closer you could drive my car and see for yourself.
 

blind*guardian

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Are you sure you're not an Ohlins salesman? :cwl:
Your feedback is appreciated though, it clears up my worries about going coilovers.



These are on sale at TireRack right now, but I can't find any info on the spring rates.



DR still sounds pretty attractive to me. Like half the price of the Ohlins too.


I'm not totally sure what I'm gonna do yet, but likely DR with camber plates and maybe upgrade to coilovers when I feel I've maxed out their potential (and my wallet and wife say it's ok)

I appreciate all the help from everyone, I don't have any more burning questions at the moment
Vorshlag website has the rates for the Bilsteins (see below). They're progressive springs, but the rates go fairly high on the front and seem to work pretty well for me on autocross, yet comfortable for a daily.

Bilstein PSS10 with Camber Plates for S550 Mustang - Vorshlag (vorshlag-store.com)
 
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BlackPlague

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I've sold and revalved piles of ohlins, nitron, jri, matris, wilbers, and ktech suspension.

If you were closer you could drive my car and see for yourself.
If only.... That's the problem with asking strangers on the internet about this stuff. Everyone has a different opinion and it's tough to tell what you're on with until you actually drive on a setup.

Vorshlag website has the rates for the Bilsteins (see below). They're progressive springs, but the rates go fairly high on the front and seem to work pretty well for me on autocross, yet comfortable for a daily.

Bilstein PSS10 with Camber Plates for S550 Mustang - Vorshlag (vorshlag-store.com)
These are at a pretty dang good price point right now, only a bit more expensive than if I went with DR


Now this brings up a question: why are the spring rates so wildly different between the coilover sets and the DR?

GT PP1: 165F, 728R
DR : 220-350F, 800-1200R
Ohlins: 515F, 801R
Bilstein: 350F, 500-725R

The Bilstein numbers are from the Vorshlag spring test, and the others I assume are spec from the manufacturer.

So I would expect very different handling characteristics between DR vs coilover.

Is there a reason the c/o provide such a drastic change on the front compared to rear?
 

shogun32

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Is there a reason the c/o provide such a drastic change on the front compared to rear?
THAT particular Bilstein setup is a bit of an odd duck. Coilovers are typically a bit shorter (less remaining stroke once settled) than their regular counterparts and they try to make up for it by cranking sping rate. Also people who buy coilovers seem to be allergic to chassis pitch - they don't want their car to stand on it's nose or rock left/right during transition.
 

NightmareMoon

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THAT particular Bilstein setup is a bit of an odd duck. Coilovers are typically a bit shorter (less remaining stroke once settled) than their regular counterparts and they try to make up for it by cranking sping rate. Also people who buy coilovers seem to be allergic to chassis pitch - they don't want their car to stand on it's nose or rock left/right during transition.
Keep a sharp eye on if the coilovers in the rear are coil over shock body in the shock's location or in the factory locations inboard on the control arm. The actual wheel spring rate is very different depending on if they're at the stock control arm and subframe mount locations or relocated to the shock position. The factory shock mount location isn't the strongest mount, so fatigue is a concern when you also relocate the springs to mount there.

Most coilovers(Bilsteins, unmodified Ohlins) are not optimized for autocross (sorry), although they may work well for your driving style as delivered., with the Ohlins you'd want to buy those from someone who can set them up differently (valving and spring rates) than how they come by default. IDK anyone who does that for the Bilsteins, but they may be out there.

FWIW, at least a couple of good coilover-base setups use coilovers in the front and the DR rear springs with divorced shocks in the rear. The rear DR rates seem to be high enough for nearly all uses, but the front rates, at 350 for the DRs are not as high as some autocrossers and road course people want to go.

With the stock perches you can't really go any higher than the DR rates without needing dedicated helper springs to keep them seated, which dictates a coilover. The DR "dual rate" is already like having a helper spring built in.
 
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shogun32

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FWIW, at least a couple of good coilover-base setups use coilovers in the front and the DR rear springs with divorced shocks in the rear
this is what my FA setup will be. Just arrived on the porch. I have 200, 275, 350, and 450 springs, torrington bearings, delrin isolators, extra preload spacers and will be doing a retrofit to Steeda and perhaps also Vorshlag camber plates.

If my understanding is not erroneous the default sag of the FA coilover results in 90mm of the stroke taken up (75%) at rest which is absolutely insane. Not only does this mean the gas pressure is vastly higher than the base 150psi it leaves a mere inch before hitting the bottom bumper. Since up front the MR is ~1 I can only absorb a 1" bump before I'm into the bumper. That is flagrantly wrong. By cranking in preload and moving the ride height my goal is to change that to 35% of stroke used at rest. We'll see if I can get things adjusted to achieve that.
 
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bnightstar

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If only.... That's the problem with asking strangers on the internet about this stuff. Everyone has a different opinion and it's tough to tell what you're on with until you actually drive on a setup.



These are at a pretty dang good price point right now, only a bit more expensive than if I went with DR


Now this brings up a question: why are the spring rates so wildly different between the coilover sets and the DR?

GT PP1: 165F, 728R
DR : 220-350F, 800-1200R
Ohlins: 515F, 801R
Bilstein: 350F, 500-725R

The Bilstein numbers are from the Vorshlag spring test, and the others I assume are spec from the manufacturer.

So I would expect very different handling characteristics between DR vs coilover.

Is there a reason the c/o provide such a drastic change on the front compared to rear?

I personally am yet to buy new shocks/springs. But so far the Ohlins sounds like the best deal though they are mighty unavailable in Europe most of the time even though Ohlins is Sweden company so should be easy to source. The best thing about Ohlins is they have Dual Flow technology in the shocks which allow for very compliment ride on the road when in full soft setting. Also they are inverted shocks in the front and rear is not true coilover but a spring in the OEM location which allows you to run whatever spring you want in the rear 800R is to soft I think for the rear with that front which mean the Out the door you will have a bit of understeer. So might consider adding rear SwayBar to the mix. If I was going with springs I would probably just do Eibach Pro (Ford Performance springs) and call it a day they are progressive the rates are very in between the Mach 1 and the GT350 and they should be good enough for autocross. However coilovers give you plenty of options down the line if you want to do track days or run racing slick tires for lap times.
I also prefer the approach of cry ones so for me Ohlins is the way to go.
 

Dana Pants

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The higher front spring rates might make the car understeer all else being equal, but they are usually also paired with more front camber and wider wheels that give front grip. So the final outcome of oversteer vs understeer can be surprising.
 

bnightstar

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They are NOT progressive. They are adding the bumper to the rate.
yeah but for me the rates look ok if you manage to survive the 1" drop which is a lot and they also work with OEM PP shocks making them the cheapest option possible.
 

strengthrehab

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yeah but for me the rates look ok if you manage to survive the 1" drop which is a lot and they also work with OEM PP shocks making them the cheapest option possible.
Cheap doesn't mean appropriate for better-than-stock handling.
 

 
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