Anyone trade their GT350R for a Cayman GT4?

[car crazy]

BierGut -You are 100% correct. These two cars are in completely different price categories. The reality is that you can purchase two GT350 for the price of a GT4 with popular options that most people add to a GT4. It is not a fair comparison. The fact people like the OP and me are comparing the two is a testament to the greatness of the GT350.

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[fpa1974]

Well, you certainly bought the right car for you. Enjoy.

a. A 101k base MSRP vs 55k base MSRP really shouldn't be compared.
b. Technology from 2017 and 2021 really shouldn't be compared.
c. Sports cars = laps times. Maybe compare 2021 GT500 and a 2021 GT4??

Quality of fitment & panels, etc? Refer to a.
Feel of gear boxes, rev matching, etc? Refer to b.

I love Porsches and have owned many and am a 30 year PCA member, but I never understood taking a thoroughbred to a rodeo or a Quarter Horse to a stakes race -- neither would do very well.

I got to pick on you bullet point a

There are many cars way less than $55k with better fit and finish than our GT350s. My 2017 Fiesta ST is one such example: the bumpers are not sagging and are properly aligned, the paint is in a different league better than my GT350, and general fit and finish inside and out is very good. It matters to take pride in what you build and apparently that is something Flat Rock forgot how to do (hint Fiesta was not made there).

 

[fpa1974]

Suspension - No contest here. Not even in the same class IMO. The GT350 felt big and drove big. The front suspension of the GT350 is great but the rear always felt unsettled to me. Certain imperfections in the pavement made the rear "bounce" and become unsettled. The GT4 is always locked in. The suspension feels less stiff but yet the car turns more flat and I have yet to feel that unsettled, "I'm not sure what this thing is going to do", feeling that drove me nuts about the GT350. Some people may like that, I did not. The behavior reminded me of my first car in high school which was a 1978 olds cutlass supreme. Ford did something slightly wrong with the rear suspension IMO. I don't know if the spring rate was too stiff or the dampening was off. Something never felt right to me about the rear end. I did like the challenge of driving it but not when it became unpredictable. I'm not talking about applying too much throttle and the rear getting loose. I love the challenge of squeezing on the throttle a little at a time to optimize traction. That was fun. I'm talking about general bouncing that happens even when driving straight but it is far worse when it happens in a corner.

The rear suspension is what bugged me quite a bit as well on my 2017 I had. I think you are right -the combination between too soft bushings, shock calibration and springs does not quite work right. It was too imprecise. I tried to make it better by getting better springs etc and while it felt better it was not right 100%. That until I drove an R later and to be honest the way the rear end feels is night and day. For my needs it is really good. It is what really sold the car to me (now Ford messed with it for 2019+ cars but have not driven one to say how it feels). Still some opportunities on the bushings for the rear cradle for example but the rear end feels a lot more composed out of the gate. Now the 982 chasis and the way it is tuned is pretty amazing no matter which motor you put in it. And you got the best one so far. Enjoy the GT4!

 

[faser]

If I may give you the perspective of a person who has owned GT350 (74,500 miles), C7 ZR1 (18,000 miles) and a 991.2 GT3RS (9,500 miles):

- American cars here are very unrefined. This is both a good thing. Good in a sense that they feel very classic, almost like the days of those Saturn V rockets in the Apollo program, but its a bad thing that from NVH to interior fit and finish to things like oil filter being very hard to get access in the GT350. You look at the american cars and you are reminded that they are all about value and that means cost cutting everywhere.

- You look at the Porsche and the precision both interior, exterior, and underbody is immense. You remove the GT3RS bumper 1,000 times and it will go back the same way with no sag, none of that “the bumper flexes and the clear coat is chipped away”. The car is made to be serviced. Every little detail has been carefully thought through. Removing the engine and transaxle as one piece can be done as short as 30 minutes and can be put back right away. Try doing a clutch replacement of the corvette or the mustang. It is a fucking disaster. Every time you attempt, its like doing open heart surgery. You have to remove the exhaust, then the driveshaft, then you have the subframe then you have all the wiggling of hoses and brake lines in the way. When you get under these cars and work on them, then you realize Germans are just not cutting corners. I bet Americans could do it just as good but then it wouldn’t be $60,000 GT350 or $140,000 ZR1 would it? This is what most people forget and miss entirely. You… get… what…. You…. Pay… for. Period.

- Then there is the fun aspect. American cars have substantially more straight line performance. You are not going to get the thrust of the vodoo from the 414 hp 8k rpm N/A. Not even close. You may come close with my GT3RS but if power is you thing, just forget about it. In curvy roads, I am 2-3 mph faster in my 520 hp gt3rs than my 755 hp ZR1. When curvy roads is my thing, porsche it is. So much balance. So much pace, and so consistent. But when i m on a highway or long stretches of road, porsche does get boring. The 2-3-4th gear WOT run of a ZR1 is faster than a 737 taking off. Its impossible not to smile ear to ear.

- The aftermarket for Porsche is at a level that isnt even close to aftermarket for american cars. You are not going to find youtube videos of rock music playing in the background and $1,500 for a full exhaust. The headers and exhaust on my GT3RS costs $13,000. The customer service, quality of the product, performance of the product are just unparalleled. Made in USA, USA engineers and welders. Not mom and pop shop in Florida welding T304, its 321SS. On a 500 hp/337 ft lbs car, it indeed ads 40tlbs and 30 hp. It isnt “porsche tax”. It is just better. I’ll even say that how much better the aftermarket for Porsche is much more than the actual car being better than the mustang/corvette. I dealt with aftermarket companies that were just plain awful. Like walmart customer service.

- Of all the cars I have owned, GT3RS is abused the most. I have times that i kept that car at 8000-9000 rpm for over a mile and a half. I have done launch controls 11 times in a row and I have pushed that car to its limits. I cannot get the oil temp to above 198F and water temp to above 203F. It has not burned an ounce of oil, not a tea spoon (and oil monitor is precise to 200ml increments) and oil reports are as clean as drinking water. Literally no metals. Want me to tell you about my piston slap or typewriter tick of my GT350? That it drinks a quart of oil every 1,000 miles. My lead levels have been high last 30,000 miles. ZR1 drinks oil too, on average 1 qt per 1,200 miles. It has a transmission leak. Coolant leak. Basically every kind of fluid leaks/burnt. I turn off rev matching in the ZR1 and heel and toe above 4k rpm and in as little as 20 miles, it consumes 1/8th of a quart of oil. If I drive it like most corvette owners below 3k rpm, oil consumption is nil. But redlining it or throttle decel just kills it. Tells you so much about tolerances. GT350 is much worse. It uses so much oil when driven the same way, I havent driven it like that in 2 years in fear of it dying on me.

- Even given the above. I like my american cars because I like the heritage and the history behind them. I love them for what they are which is why GT3RS isnt a replacement but an addition. The sound GT350 makes on a cold winter night in a forest with that V8 echoing just gives me goosebumps. It is one of those things that I can never let go, no matter how much oil it uses and how much piston slap it has every morning.

I would try to find a way to own both cars.They are so different that if you loved the R, you will miss it. If you hated it, you wont but then you would have sold it by now wouldnt you?

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

Your MO hasn't changed a bit, still the same hate on American performance and Porsche humping crap you polluted the Corvette board with until you got kicked out. According to you Mustangs are a "fucking disaster".
Hater gotta hate, troll gotta troll.
These guys here will catch on to you very quickly.

 

[WItoTX]

I got to pick on you bullet point a

There are many cars way less than $55k with better fit and finish than our GT350s. My 2017 Fiesta ST is one such example: the bumpers are not sagging and are properly aligned, the paint is in a different league better than my GT350, and general fit and finish inside and out is very good. It matters to take pride in what you build and apparently that is something Flat Rock forgot how to do (hint Fiesta was not made there).

I gotta disagree. I had a 2018 Focus ST, and was very let down by the interior. Then again, I also had a Hellcat Charger and was let down by that interior. It rattled, felt cheap, and sounded as hollow as a rotten log.

Even my GT350 feels cheap. But it's American, and I expect it. Heck, have you stepped in any new GM product over the last 10 years? They are absolutely terrible. Look pretty, but rattle and pop more than fireworks on the 4th of July.

Carcrazy is right. The fact that a GT4 and a GT350R is being compared is quite impressive. But they are apples and hand grenades in comparison in every aspect.

 

[matthewr87]

a. A 101k base MSRP vs 55k base MSRP really shouldn't be compared.

Actually the number you should be quoting is 27K which is the MSRP of the base S550 Mustang because that is made in the same factory by the same people and with the same materials as the GT350.

 

[fpa1974]

I gotta disagree. I had a 2018 Focus ST, and was very let down by the interior. Then again, I also had a Hellcat Charger and was let down by that interior. It rattled, felt cheap, and sounded as hollow as a rotten log.

Even my GT350 feels cheap. But it's American, and I expect it. Heck, have you stepped in any new GM product over the last 10 years? They are absolutely terrible. Look pretty, but rattle and pop more than fireworks on the 4th of July.

I am not really arguing the quality of the interior and how cheap it feels The ST has a cheap interior but at least it is put on together properly with no broken bits and pieces from the factory. It was a low $20K car after all. The interior of the R has better quality parts on paper - but the way it was assembled was not great to say the least. That plus no QC on the parts used which had manufacturing defects from the get go.

 

[dsiggi]

you wont but then you would have sold it by no

Give this man an award!

 

[WCRookie99]

Great points by all and kind of a Religious topic:

Here's my 2c.

I drove a GT350R at the Ford roll out years ago at Road America. This was one week after driving at the same track in a race with my Boss 302R. My first impression of the GT350R was it's a Fu#%^&g School Bus and super heavy. Every aspect, acceleration, cornering and braking just screamed, this thing is 600lbs fat.

So, really not fair comparison but rather point of nothing replaces saving weight.

The real deal of the century was the Mustang FP350S at $114K. I would take that as a track car all day over the 2X priced Porsche GT4 Clubsport.

As for street Porsche GT4 vs GT350R, I would say 911Touring and 2021 Mach 1HP both...hahahaha.

Fun times, enjoy the Holidays.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/FP350S/

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2022-porsche-911-gt3-touring-debut/

 

[BierGut]

I got to pick on you bullet point a

There are many cars way less than $55k with better fit and finish than our GT350s. My 2017 Fiesta ST is one such example: the bumpers are not sagging and are properly aligned, the paint is in a different league better than my GT350, and general fit and finish inside and out is very good. It matters to take pride in what you build and apparently that is something Flat Rock forgot how to do (hint Fiesta was not made there).

I hear ya, but.... those under 55k cars don't have a 5.2 VooDoo that makes 526HP, Tremec Gear Box, Torsen differential and 15.5 inch rotors with 6-piston Brembo calipers.

 

[joshua80]

Why not both! Not much else to add what hasn't really been said. I love em both....

 

[car crazy]

Why not both! Not much else to add what hasn't really been said. I love em both....

This man solved this complex problem! Seriously, they are different enough, both would be great to have in the garage.

 

[BierGut]

Great points by all and kind of a Religious topic:

Here's my 2c.

I drove a GT350R at the Ford roll out years ago at Road America. This was one week after driving at the same track in a race with my Boss 302R. My first impression of the GT350R was it's a Fu#%^&g School Bus and super heavy. Every aspect, acceleration, cornering and braking just screamed, this thing is 600lbs fat.

So, really not fair comparison but rather point of nothing replaces saving weight.

The real deal of the century was the Mustang FP350S at $114K. I would take that as a track car all day over the 2X priced Porsche GT4 Clubsport.

As for street Porsche GT4 vs GT350R, I would say 911Touring and 2021 Mach 1HP both...hahahaha.

Fun times, enjoy the Holidays.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/FP350S/

https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/911-gt3-models/911-gt3-touring/

Thanks for the link to the FP350S -- that is one heck of a deal.

Think for a minute if Ford could justify putting together a assembly line Porsche has with the freedom to create cars they could sell for 150k +++.

This man solved this complex problem! Seriously, they are different enough, both would be great to have in the garage.

Love it!

 

[dsm_mikey]

Loving everyone's opinion so far! Thank you for taking the time!

joshua80...well...you drive both back to back. Which one do you prefer? Do you track them both? Let's get some real world feedback from you!

Here is how I would configure my GT4-> http://www.porsche-code.com/PNJ4Q7S2

I think the track times between a GT4 and a GT350R are going to be extremely close to each other. I think it comes down to which one is going to be more fun on the limit.

I have never owned a Porsche. I always dreamed of owning a 911 GT3. When the GT350R was released I saw that as a close competitor at half the price. 8000+ redline, 500+ hp, track tuned car that is fun to drive. All boxes checked. The 911 GT3 did all of this at 500 lbs+ less, but double the price. The one thing I see as the biggest problem with this GT350R, GT500, ZL1 1LE, and even the new Z06 is curb weight. Cars are getting so heavy. If you have never driven a 2400 lbs. (or less) balanced track car, you really don't know what you are missing. I know a GT4 is not 2400 lbs, but it is 600 lbs. lighter than the GT350. It does make a difference.

I could keep the GT350R and pick up a GT4. I am concerned with owning these cars outside of warranty. I also own a 2007 S2000, 2005 Nissan 350z (Gutted track car for GLTC and Champ Car) and a 2021 Civic Type R. I could sell one of those and pick up the GT4. I just feel guilty to be honest. I have never bought a car to look cool or for prestige. I buy cars that make me happy when i drive them. The GT350R is a riot. I am sure the GT4 will be as well....such a hard decision!

 

[ShatterPoints]

If I may give you the perspective of a person who has owned GT350 (74,500 miles), C7 ZR1 (18,000 miles) and a 991.2 GT3RS (9,500 miles):

- American cars here are very unrefined. This is both a good thing. Good in a sense that they feel very classic, almost like the days of those Saturn V rockets in the Apollo program, but its a bad thing that from NVH to interior fit and finish to things like oil filter being very hard to get access in the GT350. You look at the american cars and you are reminded that they are all about value and that means cost cutting everywhere.

- You look at the Porsche and the precision both interior, exterior, and underbody is immense. You remove the GT3RS bumper 1,000 times and it will go back the same way with no sag, none of that “the bumper flexes and the clear coat is chipped away”. The car is made to be serviced. Every little detail has been carefully thought through. Removing the engine and transaxle as one piece can be done as short as 30 minutes and can be put back right away. Try doing a clutch replacement of the corvette or the mustang. It is a fucking disaster. Every time you attempt, its like doing open heart surgery. You have to remove the exhaust, then the driveshaft, then you have the subframe then you have all the wiggling of hoses and brake lines in the way. When you get under these cars and work on them, then you realize Germans are just not cutting corners. I bet Americans could do it just as good but then it wouldn’t be $60,000 GT350 or $140,000 ZR1 would it? This is what most people forget and miss entirely. You… get… what…. You…. Pay… for. Period.

- Then there is the fun aspect. American cars have substantially more straight line performance. You are not going to get the thrust of the vodoo from the 414 hp 8k rpm N/A. Not even close. You may come close with my GT3RS but if power is you thing, just forget about it. In curvy roads, I am 2-3 mph faster in my 520 hp gt3rs than my 755 hp ZR1. When curvy roads is my thing, porsche it is. So much balance. So much pace, and so consistent. But when i m on a highway or long stretches of road, porsche does get boring. The 2-3-4th gear WOT run of a ZR1 is faster than a 737 taking off. Its impossible not to smile ear to ear.

- The aftermarket for Porsche is at a level that isnt even close to aftermarket for american cars. You are not going to find youtube videos of rock music playing in the background and $1,500 for a full exhaust. The headers and exhaust on my GT3RS costs $13,000. The customer service, quality of the product, performance of the product are just unparalleled. Made in USA, USA engineers and welders. Not mom and pop shop in Florida welding T304, its 321SS. On a 500 hp/337 ft lbs car, it indeed ads 40tlbs and 30 hp. It isnt “porsche tax”. It is just better. I’ll even say that how much better the aftermarket for Porsche is much more than the actual car being better than the mustang/corvette. I dealt with aftermarket companies that were just plain awful. Like walmart customer service.

- Of all the cars I have owned, GT3RS is abused the most. I have times that i kept that car at 8000-9000 rpm for over a mile and a half. I have done launch controls 11 times in a row and I have pushed that car to its limits. I cannot get the oil temp to above 198F and water temp to above 203F. It has not burned an ounce of oil, not a tea spoon (and oil monitor is precise to 200ml increments) and oil reports are as clean as drinking water. Literally no metals. Want me to tell you about my piston slap or typewriter tick of my GT350? That it drinks a quart of oil every 1,000 miles. My lead levels have been high last 30,000 miles. ZR1 drinks oil too, on average 1 qt per 1,200 miles. It has a transmission leak. Coolant leak. Basically every kind of fluid leaks/burnt. I turn off rev matching in the ZR1 and heel and toe above 4k rpm and in as little as 20 miles, it consumes 1/8th of a quart of oil. If I drive it like most corvette owners below 3k rpm, oil consumption is nil. But redlining it or throttle decel just kills it. Tells you so much about tolerances. GT350 is much worse. It uses so much oil when driven the same way, I havent driven it like that in 2 years in fear of it dying on me.

- Even given the above. I like my american cars because I like the heritage and the history behind them. I love them for what they are which is why GT3RS isnt a replacement but an addition. The sound GT350 makes on a cold winter night in a forest with that V8 echoing just gives me goosebumps. It is one of those things that I can never let go, no matter how much oil it uses and how much piston slap it has every morning.

I would try to find a way to own both cars.They are so different that if you loved the R, you will miss it. If you hated it, you wont but then you would have sold it by now wouldnt you?

Let me know if you have any specific questions.

I agree on the refinement, I also agree that you do get what you pay for. Porsche has had a looong time to get thing right with 2 or so models and it shows. Except fuck those stupid cup holders.

I disagree that the Pcar aftermarket is amazing. There is ABSOLUTELY a brand tax, most shops / business see you drive a 911 or whatnot and all they see is $$$. I didn't realize I had an impression of porsche owners being frugal bastards until I was one. There is also less continued support because not many people buy porsche not expecting to treat them as an investment. Mods ruin resale in the Pcar community.

I think that with the GT350 in particular the suspension setup is about as close as we're going to get to great on an affordable american sports car. The 911 and cayman's suspension geometry is completely different and it shows when you're going round a track.

There is something to be said to a well setup car with the engine in the back, "It hits different" as the kids say lol. And so that is my point, I can't sit here and honestly say that one car is ""better"" than the other. It really is about what you want. Like loud exhaust AND the idea of a 911? get a 997 N/A and rev that to the moon. Want the unmistakable low end v8 torque and grumble? get the mustang. Both have decently ok maintenance, for me it was always several hours getting the carrier plate, motor, etc out of my 911. Though I suppose the massively over engineering of the mezger will do that to you *shrug*

It's not worth it to debate what's what with these cars. If anyone is considering trying one or the other, just go do it. Each car will bring you joy in a way the other can't.

lastly I do miss my 911TT I will try to find a way back into a 911 when it doesn't require a rebuild after 100hrs on track :/

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