Another 9 second Hellion car/ now with “predator” 5.2/GT 350 heads

[tsloms]

Oliver I beams

MMR said all of your rods were bent? I'm not understanding how that can be blamed on a tuner. Too much fuel with out a spark could bend rods but on all 8?

Also how does a tune lead to a blown head gasket?

That does sound a bit weird. You would need to dump in a ton of fuel in order to bend rods. Normally the engine would even just pump the fuel through it and cause no harm.

On a side note I was at MMR today chatting with the guys. Greg was very knowledgeable and great to talk with.

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[Phoenix]

The rods were the Oliver I beams .
The block was there "1500 HP" block .
Only runs were on the dyno and may be 2000 street miles .
They said there were signs the head gaskets were blown on all cylinders so guess there was a loot of coolant in the cylinders .
They also said there were signs of detonation in the pistons (the surfaces I saw while the block was assembled looked fine) - see above .
Engine was blowing steam from day one so may be it was in part installation issue .
May be head studs torqued wrong ?

word on the street is LMR's hellion car always ran hot.

 

[olaosunt]

Need some help!! (warning you may get a headache reading this)

So after both cars had been down for 3 months my tech finally put together the Hellion car using the sleeved short block I originally had built to go in the KB car with the GT 350 heads off the same car.
I used new Head studs and the billet pins MMR recommends.

Now when the heads first came off he was concerned about what looked like some mild scoring of the cam journals so I had a local head shop take a look at them.They said they were not really concerned about it and thought I could use them.There was no real way to fix them anyway so they said they "lightly" polished them so they looked smooth again.


Well, motor is back in,fires up and runs great at first,holding oil pressure(per my in car gauge )at 60psi until CHT gets to about 203 then the pressure drops like a rock.It throws cam position sensor codes and you hear some valve train noise.
We rechecked the oil pick up tube clearances(even replaced the tube as it had some material in it ?? lube) hoping that was the issue ...... but no dice.

The measured pressure at the oil sending unit is 30 psi but down to 5 psi at the right head so it losing pressure in between.

My tech suspects the cam journals that were worked on are the culprit with increasing clearances when they expand as engine warms up.

Short block is a fresh build but I guess it is possible there could clearance issues with bearings in there as well.

Not sure what I am going to do but I could bite the bullet and get new GT 350 heads but what if thats not the issue?

My Ford tech charges me a reduced rate of labor but its all adding up.

The motor has to come out again anyway so considering sending the long block back to MMR for them to look at but that is $450 again each way and I may be waiting another 4-6 weeks( I paid $450 rush to get the other block dom in 2 weeks)

I considered swapping the GT 350 pump("high pressure pump)/pan in to the motor and putting it back in the KB car(as it was before) but now doubt that will be a fix.If that fails motor will have to come out again which more $$$ labor.

Any suggestions?


The other block that was rebuilt by MMR and heads(decked) that were originally in the Hellion just arrived.
I think I am just going to have them put together the KB again car first(new Tremec has been sitting in there ware house since February)
At least get one car going (hopefully no issues with this one) while I figure out what I want to do with the Hellion car.


Man , when it rains it pours !!

 

[jhatley7]

Damnit man sry to hear! Hopefully you can get it all sorted out.

 

[F1scamp]

What does the oil pressure drop to? What cam codes does it throw? I did a little polishing to one of my cam journals as well as it had a score in it. 4k miles on it so far with no issues. Unless they went crazy with it, I can't fathom it would make any kind of difference.

My guess would be wrong headgasket, an oil galley plug missing?

 

[olaosunt]

That's what I thought as it looked like they barely touched them(and just the two in front of the heads)

I would hate to spend $3500 on new heads only for that not to be the issue which is why I may have to bite the bullet and have to send long block to MMR to check clearances (my ford tech says they don't have the tools and has to be done at a machine shop ).
If it turns out it's the heads then I am out $900 shipping but at least would have peace of mind .
I could gamble ans just do the heads but if I am wrong I will have just wasted money on new heads( I guess I could swell the spare )and will have the extra cost of labor of having the motor out again .

The in car gauge drops to below 20 psi -we shut it off quickly as you start to hear valve train noises .
If the temp stays below 200 like it does idling ,it has no issues(stays at 50-60 psi)and could run all day .The pressure increases when you rev the engine to 100 psi
If you drive it around the block and the temps get to 207 the pressure drops and start to hear the noise .
He said the pressure measured 30 psi at the sending unit and 5 psi at the right head so it's losing presssure after the pump -could be crank,mains or cam bearings but thought the heads since they had been touched .

The codes are multiple cam sensor position codes (p0340,p0344,p0345 and P0349)

 

[olaosunt]

What does the oil pressure drop to? What cam codes does it throw? I did a little polishing to one of my cam journals as well as it had a score in it. 4k miles on it so far with no issues. Unless they went crazy with it, I can't fathom it would make any kind of difference.

My guess would be wrong headgasket, an oil galley plug missing?

Thanks man. I really appreciate any and all advice I can get on this
Can you explain how the wrong head gaskets could cause this ?

We used the GT 350 head gaskets which I thought would be better fit for the GT 350 heads.The block is bored out to 5.2 but starts as 2015 block.I am not sure how it's otherwise different from the GT head gaskets(which I used before )
Difference in oil passages?

How do I check to see if an oil galley plug is missing ?

My tech says since it only has issues when it gets warm it has to be due to something in the engine expanding causing increased clearances.

 

[olaosunt]

If galley plugs are missing would that not cause low pressure cold as well ?

Even though it's a fresh build it could also potentially be the short block if crank bearings have wrong clearances,right ?

 

[F1scamp]

They make different head gaskets for 5.2 heads on a 5.0 motor. No idea if thats your problem, or what the difference is. I would be shocked if one polished cam journal is causing that kind of pressure loss. SKU: M-6067-M5052 Is the correct? Headgasket.

 

[olaosunt]

They make different head gaskets for 5.2 heads on a 5.0 motor. No idea if thats your problem, or what the difference is. I would be shocked if one polished cam journal is causing that kind of pressure loss. SKU: M-6067-M5052 Is the correct? Headgasket.

Thanks again man.

I used a different one:5.2L COYOTE HEAD CHANGING KIT M-6067-M52
Fits 5.2L Coyote cylinder head on a 5.2L block.
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6067-M52.

here is the link to the M-6067-M5052
https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6067-M5052

I went with the M52 because of my 5.2 block.
They look kind of the same.

 

[BMR Tech]

I gotta tell ya. Sometimes it's best to keep things simple.

What I have found over the years with the Coyote platform is that the more complicated and "fancy" the builds...the more issues.

It is very hard to match how well a simple forged engine combo with mostly stock stuff runs. The proof is in the pudding...and the pudding is the NHRA Cobra jets and their high rpm big boost engines that aren't much more than an aluminator. Stock sleeved, Manley rods and mahle pistons.

Coolant issues are very common. Between lifting heads from the coyote design...to improper clamping force of the studs for various reasons to tuning and on and on.

Also, I could be wrong....but word on the street is that the gt350 heads have been causing issues with oiling. I've heard the cam journals are tight and several people have had issues with excessive scoring and cams actually seizing in the heads.

The consumers have to experience this stuff and it's unfortunate
...but that's the price of playing the game I suppose.

I chose a 5.2 block that I had sleeved...and I'm aware of the issues with people cracking them with big boost. I can only cross my fingers.

 

[olaosunt]

Thanks for the input Kelly and I am sure you are right .

I am learning the hard way but my recent experiences has left me wanting to quit messing with these cars .
Once I get them back together I don't think I will be beating on them.They will just be street cars with occasional strip.

Since you mention the issues with the GT 350 heads I am tempted to just throw back my old GT heads ,upgrade the springs and call it a day .
It could however still turn out to be a bad short block build. so I think best course of action may still be having he engine builder look at entire long block. Hopefully they will fess up if it turns out to be their error and if its the heads then I would feel less uneasy replacing them or just going back to my old GT heads .
Part of the motivation for the 5.2\GT 350 heads was hoping the increased displacement would feel a little like my old 11 GT 500( I truly miss her ) as well as getting to buid my own next generation GT 500.
At this rate it would have been much cheaper to have just waited .lol

 

[Burnin4]

Ola, my head spins when I read your threads, lol. I mean that in a nice way, but you always seem to be doing different things, which I applaud, but I feel bad for your troubles. For now on just buy an MPR engine, let Tim build the whole thing, and let Ken Bjonnes tune your car, problems solved. Good luck brother, hope you get all of those beauties fixed.

 

[F1scamp]

I am sure you already did, but i would talk to your engine builder before you go any further. The way i am taking what you are saying is you had a factory 5.0l block bored and sleeved to 5.2l. I can't see how those head gaskets you say you used would be correct since the 5.2l block has different coolant passages at the very least. It really doesnt take much to restrict oil to a head, or to bleed off pressure. Where was he measuring the pressure at the head?

 

[olaosunt]

LOL
Thanks bro,but I did warn you reading this could give you a headache....and not only because of lack of spell check on my phone .

Going through all this is just going to make me appreciate the cars when I finally get them running again but I have learnt some hard lessons.

1. Time to give up this modding business and save my bank account ...or if I must, keep it simple (thanks Kelly !!!)

2. No more beating up on cars 3 days a week at the drag strip , unless I can find time to go to automotive tech school and fix my own shit when it breaks .lol

3. I don't need multiple mustangs .I just need the fastest one I can get....from the factory ...and keep it stock (well maybe a tune).I am hoping the next GT 500 fits the bill .The GT 350 will have to go.I love how it sounds/drives but I need at least a 10 second car ,if I am to have just one mustang .I may try and unload the GT 's too but I have too much in the them at this point .

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