Another 2020 engine failure

GreenS550

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I’m just gonna go off your first argument—engine replacement which is your discussion about values. I’m not really going to talk about the other stuff because I’m well-versed in the California law in the buyback procedure with Ford, and so I really don’t care to go through the procedures that you posted below, you may disagree with me but I literally laid out California lemon law and also Ford’s own procedures for what the situation is like when you’re facing a buy back procedure. I pretty much skimmed the rest of that because I literally am telling you from first hand perspective what that is like to go through it, take that as you will.

To the point on engine value and whether or not that should be a factor.

you said:

“Your statement about a replacement engine is far from the truth. Engine replacement on a GT350, GT350R or GT500 will affect the value of the vehicle.”

I think you should read at what I wrote again because you are missing the crux of my argument.

Here it is what I said:

“…a replacement motor is not going to kill his values.”

This statement is followed immediately by the crux of my argument that I’m making about why it’s not going to affect his values very much:

“…[BECAUSE] … Ford made 25,000 base model GT350’s over 6 years. When magazines say that they made these in pretty big numbers they’re meaning those—base models—because that’s far more than the roughly 3,000 R models, I wouldn’t be holding out for the collector car market with any base model. Auctions have shown them selling above MSRP, but not crazy high in the 80-100k range that R models have gone for—with so many of them, it’s not going to be a factor. So if you have a base model, drive it! Enjoy it! Don’t worry about the collector car market.”


Let me explain in full:

In 1965, there were a total of 562 Shelby GT350s were built in 1965, 37 of which were the lightweight race or "R-model" cars.

Fast forward to the second generation GT350, the base model 350 numbers around 25 thousand!!

An example, in 2018 Ford made 633 GT350R models. In that same year, Ford made 639 base model GT350s in just one color, Leadfoot Gray. They made a total of 3,745 base models in that one year—that’s either about as many or more units that Ford made of the GT350R with all 6 years of production combined!!

Numbers matching base GT350s are not going to matter with that production number. If it is still a good condition car, you’re going to see values being above MSRP. IT WILL NOT BE AS IF THE CAR HAS A SALAVAGE TITLE OR WILL SELL FAR BELOW STANDARD VALUE.

Base models are too numerous to ever be a huge collector car item— we are not talking about GT350R or 500 carbon package as you mentioned in your reply. Those particular vehicles were made in a smaller numbers than their base vehicle counterparts. 3000-3600 some odd GT350R‘s to 25,000 GT350 base models.

Show me where there’s an auction were a base model 350 or even a 2015 GT350 base model went for super high value? Something in the range of an R model?

Are they selling for more than MSRP? yes. Are they commanding the same type of values of an R model? no. And the reason is because it is a base model—doesn’t matter what year it was made in, there are so many base models that you will always have more cars available than buyers, so it’s always going to drive the price down far below an R model.

For instance last week, there was an auction for a 2015 base model. There were only 100 base models produced in 2015 and the one for auction only got to “$72,500. So $79,750 final price.”

High for a base model, but for a 2015, the expectations assumed that it would be a 90k to 100k car because it is a 2015 GT350 of which there were only 100.

If the base models were so sought after or so highly valued then this 2015 base model should have sold for much higher as it would be in parity with its R-model counterpart, which as I mentioned before are selling for $150,000 to $200,000—far higher than almost any other R model from other years.

Owners with base models should enjoy their cars. They have an amazing car —it’s an amazing machine, they should drive it and enjoy it and not sit around looking at collector car values because based on just supply and demand it’s never going to affect them. So, if you plan to keep that car, who cares if your car has a second motor, or a supercharger, or if you put whatever aftermarket stuff on the car you don’t have to keep it original you got a base model—enjoy it. There are different rules for if you have a base model GT350/base model GT500, or if you own a GT350R or a GT500 Carbon Fiber Track Pack.

TO CONCLUDE THIS POINT, a no-numbers matching replacement engine cannot effect his future collector car value because he has no or little future collector car value in the first place.

If you wanted a collector car, then you should’ve bought an R model. This is a fact! Auctions and R model prices have shown and have proven that.

There is a reason why R models and Carbon Track Packages demand a premium when buying from new. They have more exclusive parts and they are rarer—for those cars, I would agree with you on the replacement engines, but like I said before, a base model’s future market value is not the same as a R-model or a 500 Carbon Track Package.

So to consider arguing for a Buyback because it does not have the numbers matching engine for a vehicle that is so numerous that it is never going to be considered as a collector car, is bad advise in my opinion. It would also be bad advice if I told a base model owner “don’t drive your car and keep it at super low miles because you could flip it.” Can you sell it for a profit? Yes. For a large profit that you’re seeing with low miles 350R? Hell no. Most likely you will get more or about as much as you paid for it.

The only argument that I could see towards this is if the OP is only a short term owner. If he’s looking to possibly flip the car in a couple years then I can see the argument.

As for your own experience in helping people which I assume you’ve already gone through the same process at some time in your life. All I can tell you is that so have I.

The documentation that you cut and pasted from other documents or a document that you have or that you sourced still say exactly the same thing: there’s three options here either a 30 days, or they cannot fix the vehicle, or the vehicles has been back to the dealership multiple times for the same issue without a solution being found.

So your options in that situation are either a) Ford fixes the vehicle; b) Ford replaces the vehicle; or c) Ford buys the car back in which situation they usually try to look at reduction of value based on miles before the issue occurred which is something that you have to negotiate with and if you disagree, then you go grab a lawyer and you go to court and try to fight them for what you believe your car is worth.

In the situation, with this particular car, they have a fix for his vehicle, so option (a) is the solution that Ford will go with. Unless a replacement engine cannot be sourced in a fast enough time frame, he is fine here.

On the point replacement, (b) Ford has no replacement 350s. And like I said before, trust me, I know.

If you cannot do ( a) Or (b) then you’re left with (c) a buyback.

So I’m really not sure why you’re posting all of that information because I literally said all of that in my posts, as well as also post a link to California lemon law.
I'll just comment that the replaced engine does seriously affect the value. I looked long and hard for a used GT350. I used Autotrader, Ford's site, Facebook, etc, etc. Just start with "lowest price first"' and virtually all the GT350s are "lemon buyback" stamped.
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GreenS550

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I suspect GM has better and more thorough engineers. If for no other reason than they've watched Ford make fools of themselves and they'd rather avoid the same self-inflected gun shot.

IMO Ford Engine design needs to (re)learn a fundamental lesson - Just because (you think) you can, doesn't mean you should. All that positive accolades for doing the "unthinkable" has right or wrong been significantly tarnished and Ferrari et. al. are sniggering into their Espresso about those dumb Americans who think they are smarter than everyone else...

Ford has no race program worth a damn, and they haven't raced the Voodoo for years before they had the crazy notion to sell it to the general public. On that front GM is vastly more wise/sensible. Maybe GM's FP-crank Z06 will be a spectacular failure in reliability too and if so they will richly deserve the column inches of ridicule heaped upon their heads.
Yep, GM is very wise. Got the bailout because of the expert engineers and managers. They are definitely superior because Ford was too stupid to sell their soul to the government. I remember that every time I see GM's superior products.
 

Basspro302

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I suspect GM has better and more thorough engineers. If for no other reason than they've watched Ford make fools of themselves and they'd rather avoid the same self-inflected gun shot.

IMO Ford Engine design needs to (re)learn a fundamental lesson - Just because (you think) you can, doesn't mean you should. All that positive accolades for doing the "unthinkable" has right or wrong been significantly tarnished and Ferrari et. al. are sniggering into their Espresso about those dumb Americans who think they are smarter than everyone else...

Ford has no race program worth a damn, and they haven't raced the Voodoo for years before they had the crazy notion to sell it to the general public. On that front GM is vastly more wise/sensible. Maybe GM's FP-crank Z06 will be a spectacular failure in reliability too and if so they will richly deserve the column inches of ridicule heaped upon their heads.
My paychecks prove otherwise, the amount of money I make repairing gm’s hot garbage is ridiculous.
Im not saying fords any better but damn im getting tired of replacing timing chains in ecotecs.

So you but a brand new silverado for 55k? How a bout a side of bent push rods and a wiped out cam lobe.

There is nothing wrong with the engineering on the voodoo.
Its a materials/manufacturing issue.
 

stanglife

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I'll just comment that the replaced engine does seriously affect the value. I looked long and hard for a used GT350. I used Autotrader, Ford's site, Facebook, etc, etc. Just start with "lowest price first"' and virtually all the GT350s are "lemon buyback" stamped.
In the short term, when there are plenty of low mile cars available without an engine replacement, I agree. I think the care factor will reduce over time, though. Even now, some people prefer the slight discount and gen2 engine...which could be argued as a better situation.
 

shogun32

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Perfect engineering is worth nothing if you can't or won't police you suppliers and manufacturing such that the product is reliable.

Engineering has to 5ake into account the realities of the real world and historical supply chain or it's just masterbation to a cad drawing.
 

Wildcardfox

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I'll just comment that the replaced engine does seriously affect the value. I looked long and hard for a used GT350. I used Autotrader, Ford's site, Facebook, etc, etc. Just start with "lowest price first"' and virtually all the GT350s are "lemon buyback" stamped.

Those are two separate things… a buyback does not equal that a replacement engine was the cause of the buyback; and conversely a replacement engine does not equal a buyback.

It’s stamped lemon buyback only if it was bought back by Ford.

The cheapest cars for sell on Sites like “AutoTrader, Ford's site, Facebook, etc, etc.” will always be buyback cars because they will have steep discounts because the car has a checkered title with the Lemon Law Buyback on it.

Your example shows not that a replacement engine greatly effected value but that a buyback did, which I fully agree with.
 

GreenS550

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That's a great point! The ones I looked at were lemon BuyBacks. So I guess the person taking the hit on that would be Ford. I know though I've looked at carfax's that list the engine was replaced. And they are also in the lower priced category but not as bad as a lemon buyback. Thanks for correcting me.
 

DrumReaper

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you mistake dealer mechanics as giving a damn about 'why' and especially in the light of they being prohibited by Ford to do an actual tear-down. And at this point, short of the tensioner STILL managing to be stuck in the retracted position you can't possibly ascertain it's condition just prior to engine failure.

And furthermore, it's his thread, he can call the whole damn car and the engineers who made these choices and neglected to address heat and oiling issues etc. blithering idiots if he wants to.

The vast majority of people don't give a wet fart why or how, just that the damn thing blew up and they are disgusted with Ford's problems with QC or engineering fundamentals that may or may not have lead to it.

They want their damn car back in a timely fashion or a "full refund" and never darken Ford's door again, or something between the two extremes.
You’re brilliant… so damn brilliant you don’t even know how brilliant you are. So damn brilliant in fact, if you’d understood how to assess the tensioners you’d see from the OP’s pic on the very first pic that all the teardown needed to assess the tensioners was done.
C991BF29-CCD9-4369-98CD-7FF505CED395.jpeg


The driver’s side chains look to be intact, but you can’t tell from the pic if the tensioner is in the correct position or not.
434F2FC2-778D-4864-BB78-FD315E114A51.jpeg

According to OP, cyl#7 had the failure. All that’s needed to assess the tensioner is in full view.

As far as your other statements, their not worth a crap to respond to. @stanglife nailed it… you’re a joke.
 
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Egparson202

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Bummer to hear but is this a more than average failure issue? Years ago people were keeping spreadsheets on reported failures and motors replaced due to excess oil consumption. My 2017 is in the latter category - replaced at 9000 miles (was consuming 1 qt/250 miles). My 2nd motor after 23K miles is fine.
@Ravinshield Though Rick didn’t say it, the post at least carries the strong possibility for a long happy ownership experience after the car is fixed.

While there are a lot of other points being made in this thread, this is something we should all consider if/when we find ourselves in your present circumstances.

I hope you don’t allow all the bickering to color your opinion of the car or the community too heavily. Get your car back, do a proper break in and enjoy it. They’re awesome but not perfect cars.
 
OP
OP

Ravinshield

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@Ravinshield Though Rick didn’t say it, the post at least carries the strong possibility for a long happy ownership experience after the car is fixed.

While there are a lot of other points being made in this thread, this is something we should all consider if/when we find ourselves in your present circumstances.

I hope you don’t allow all the bickering to color your opinion of the car or the community too heavily. Get your car back, do a proper break in and enjoy it. They’re awesome but not perfect cars.
Thanks for the encouraging words, prior to getting the car I looked on YouTube and some forums to see how the 2020 models were doing in the engine failure aspect, I didn't find a whole lot so I went ahead and purchased it. It took a dump on me and I want others to add my 2020 to the list, and to bring awareness for those looking at purchasing 2020s. I'm not here to bash the car, yes I said POS engine but I shouldn't be crucified for that. I love mustangs, like I said this is my fifth one, my other four mustangs never gave me problems like this. Well my cobra did eat alternators like they were Candies and send me to the ER once lol but I was ok with that because I loved that car, I was hoping switching over to the S550 platform was going to awesome but so far it hasn't. I'm a loyal Ford customer and that ain't going to change, yes I'm disappointed but everyone makes mistakes so I'll give them a second chance.

Ford is trying to fix their mistakes, they provided a new engine to me in 3 days, that's crazy fast and they're now agreeing to compensate me once the car is fixed. The dealership on the other hand is the one making it difficult for me, come on 22 days to diagnose the car, they didn't give me a rental till it was diagnosed. To top it off the service director which I was surprised he actually responded to my email tells me that it's going to take 15 days for them to install the engine, that's freaking outrageous.

For those asking about the builder I promise I'll post a picture once I get my car back.
 

JR369

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Perfect engineering is worth nothing if you can't or won't police you suppliers and manufacturing such that the product is reliable.

Engineering has to 5ake into account the realities of the real world and historical supply chain or it's just masterbation to a cad drawing.
My ordered new 15 C7 with 98xx miles has been in to the dealer for warranty work 3 times. The most recent was the clutch master cylinder just 2 weeks ago. As a side note, I guess you don't frequent the corvette forums. Because if you did, you would've been familiar with torque tube vibration and replacements on the autos. And the A8 transmission failure tracking spreadsheet.

My bought new 18 R with 88xx miles = zero warranty work. In fact it hasn't seen the dealer since the day I drove it off the lot. I do my own oil changes.
 
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Inthehighdesert

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My apologies if I missed it, did they say what the issue was that caused the failure?


Thanks for the encouraging words, prior to getting the car I looked on YouTube and some forums to see how the 2020 models were doing in the engine failure aspect, I didn't find a whole lot so I went ahead and purchased it. It took a dump on me and I want others to add my 2020 to the list, and to bring awareness for those looking at purchasing 2020s. I'm not here to bash the car, yes I said POS engine but I shouldn't be crucified for that. I love mustangs, like I said this is my fifth one, my other four mustangs never gave me problems like this. Well my cobra did eat alternators like they were Candies and send me to the ER once lol but I was ok with that because I loved that car, I was hoping switching over to the S550 platform was going to awesome but so far it hasn't. I'm a loyal Ford customer and that ain't going to change, yes I'm disappointed but everyone makes mistakes so I'll give them a second chance.

Ford is trying to fix their mistakes, they provided a new engine to me in 3 days, that's crazy fast and they're now agreeing to compensate me once the car is fixed. The dealership on the other hand is the one making it difficult for me, come on 22 days to diagnose the car, they didn't give me a rental till it was diagnosed. To top it off the service director which I was surprised he actually responded to my email tells me that it's going to take 15 days for them to install the engine, that's freaking outrageous.

For those asking about the builder I promise I'll post a picture once I get my car back.
 

rick81721

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@Ravinshield Though Rick didn’t say it, the post at least carries the strong possibility for a long happy ownership experience after the car is fixed.

While there are a lot of other points being made in this thread, this is something we should all consider if/when we find ourselves in your present circumstances.

I hope you don’t allow all the bickering to color your opinion of the car or the community too heavily. Get your car back, do a proper break in and enjoy it. They’re awesome but not perfect cars.
Yes that is the case for me. I'm not concerned with re-sale value - my GT350 has been amazing to own and drive. Even when it was consuming oil, it wasn't apparent by performance. No other issues with this car!
 

Egparson202

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Thanks for the encouraging words, prior to getting the car I looked on YouTube and some forums to see how the 2020 models were doing in the engine failure aspect, I didn't find a whole lot so I went ahead and purchased it. It took a dump on me and I want others to add my 2020 to the list, and to bring awareness for those looking at purchasing 2020s. I'm not here to bash the car, yes I said POS engine but I shouldn't be crucified for that. I love mustangs, like I said this is my fifth one, my other four mustangs never gave me problems like this. Well my cobra did eat alternators like they were Candies and send me to the ER once lol but I was ok with that because I loved that car, I was hoping switching over to the S550 platform was going to awesome but so far it hasn't. I'm a loyal Ford customer and that ain't going to change, yes I'm disappointed but everyone makes mistakes so I'll give them a second chance.

Ford is trying to fix their mistakes, they provided a new engine to me in 3 days, that's crazy fast and they're now agreeing to compensate me once the car is fixed. The dealership on the other hand is the one making it difficult for me, come on 22 days to diagnose the car, they didn't give me a rental till it was diagnosed. To top it off the service director which I was surprised he actually responded to my email tells me that it's going to take 15 days for them to install the engine, that's freaking outrageous.

For those asking about the builder I promise I'll post a picture once I get my car back.
I’d be just as interested in knowing who the dealer is. Sounds like pretty awful treatment.
 
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