A10 vs M6 for serious track duty EB Mustang?

[fatbillybob]

Where did I say I expect a turn key race car out of the showroom?

You're racing a street car.

My problems have never been with the tranny. My problem is with the build quality, build execution and engineering. Imagine if your only concern was cost? Does the image of "paper tiger" come to mind? It was my bad for assuming a mimimum street performance product and not doing enough research. I have 5 races on this chassis and as we develop perhaps there will be good at the end of the day. Time will tell.

DK, if you are really interested in the EB A10 then go drive it at the dealer. IMO the A10 is clunky as an auto. I do not like my streetcar shifting every second. I have an 8speed BMW X3 and all the shifting is annoying. We don't have 8 and 10 speeds for performance. We have them for mandated fuel economy. It just so happens that with 10 gears you can always find the right gear on the racetrack.

Just drive the car in sport manual from your 1st roll off the lot. Brake, drop 2 gears (feel the rev match and the effect on the chassis), turn accelerate upshift twice in farily close succession. What you feel without breaking laws is 90% of what the box will do. For me , It rev matched downshift and held gear to redline and I did as much testing as I could without breaking any laws and under 50mph on the street with the salemen in the car. He thought I was nuts buying a new stang to gut into a racecar. It was either going to be a 6speed or A10. I took a huge chance hoping the A10 would live up to the hype and that at track speeds the box would be even better. Then a drove a couple more A10's and bought one. I was lucky because I really do think this box is as good as the PDK and it has exceeded my expectations. But even a PDK is not a real sequential racebox. When you look at the pros and cons (especially maintenance/breakdown issues) of A10 vs. BMW DCT or Porsche PDK the A10 wins easily. What feels even better is the Supra 8speed auto which is BMW autobox. It is really good and would not be surprised if the future of DCT in BMW's are numbered. I have always said double clutch boxes are the future dinosaurs. The slushbox development will continue. The slushbox will prevail.

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[TeeLew]

That's why I mentioned the Cup car. The latest is a sequential dog box with a Megaline shifter. The older cars are a dog box with aftermarket paddles. They work well, too.

 

[fatbillybob]

Flyhalf,

I have an idea for you to try if you still run the stang. Let's assume if the temps are really in control the box will work fine. Let's assume that because the guys racing the camaro A10 are not having issues with the same A10 guts and GM has invested in the track oriented nature of the A10 in the Camaro.

Maybe a solution is to not try and massage the inadequately engineered Ford cooling system. Forget figuring out the bypass solution, forget bigger cooler spliced inline, forget fluid viscosity issues sucking through the 2 stage filter.

My solution for you is:

1- replumb back to the original tranny cooler configuration and just leave it be.
2-refill back with ULV fluid
3-plumb AN-8 line from a pan drain to a very reliable tilton fluid pump with inline Thermostat set at temp you want say 180F system is cooling. Add a giant cooler like the 67,000btu Derale #54008 plumbed back to the tranny dipstick hole. Total cost maybe $300?

This will keep the fluid cool and let the A10 do what it wants. The A10 will only see cool fluid not how it got cool. When we my hybrid cooling system enhancments we really do not know the outcome. For all we know splicing in a big cooler is too much for the A10's internal pump to push the fluid. We have no clue if we are effecting things in a negative way. If we have a totally separate system we don't impart unknowns.

If this does not work and the fluid is cool under race conditions then the box just isn't up to what you are asking of it. That means driver modification or switching to a new platform. From what I understand the GM A10 vs the Ford A10, the GM is just better cooled and the package is better engineered but the boxes are the same. So I would not be buying a camaro if I were you. I'd be looking at something else. Be careful with DCT's and PDK's. At the track there are only a few guys racing them but they account for a large number of BMW's or Porsches that break during practice and never make it to the race.

 

[fatbillybob]

That's why I mentioned the Cup car. The latest is a sequential dog box with a Megaline shifter. The older cars are a dog box with aftermarket paddles. They work well, too.

Sure but I don't like Porsches. It puts you in a different race class. Faster classes are more effort. If I did that I would switch to a purpose build racecar. Once you go to faster classes you have a whole new infrastructure to deal with. Racing in the T classes as as close as you can get to driving a streetlegal car to the track racing it and driving home. Flyhalf is doing that in Time Trial. He is on the edge of streetable. He runs a splitter that will rip off if he leaves the track or goes to fast in the 7/11 parking lot. He might even have to manage rain with his swiss cheese hood. I'm not sure how engine electronics like water. Track camber destorys tirers on street. He can drive RE-71's on the street but the Hoosier's while technically DOT legal are dangerous in the street. Everything is a compromise.

 

[D K]

BMW makes (has them made) great gearboxes.
Everything after the disastrous smg is good. And yes, their autoboxes are pretty damn good too.

I think I'm gonna try a nascar dogbox and have 4 usable gears on track. Weighs about 1/3, get to left foot brake, and no worries about cooling anything.

 

[TeeLew]

BMW makes (has them made) great gearboxes.
Everything after the disastrous smg is good. And yes, their autoboxes are pretty damn good too.

I think I'm gonna try a nascar dogbox and have 4 usable gears on track. Weighs about 1/3, get to left foot brake, and no worries about cooling anything.

I think this is a very good option if you don't drive on the freeway much.

 

[TeeLew]

Everything is a compromise.

Truth.

I just mentioned the Porsche thing because it's about as off-the-shelf car to race I know. I've got a good bit of experience with these cars. I didn't start off caring one way or the other about Porsche's, but I've been damn impressed by these cars. They do a good job with them.

 

[D K]

Yes they do!
Its years and decades of evolution, not revolution and every generation is better than the previous one.

I just watched the article about the gt500 and the gt3rs head to head, and I have to say I was impressed by the GT500.
Same platform as the Mustang and with a lot more power, but still - only a couple of tenths away from the Porsche.
My thinking is - if I get to GT500 level hp and be several hundred lbs lighter - it should be a good car.

Thats really my main reason of looking into the Mustang.

Truth.

I just mentioned the Porsche thing because it's about as off-the-shelf car to race I know. I've got a good bit of experience with these cars. I didn't start off caring one way or the other about Porsche's, but I've been damn impressed by these cars. They do a good job with them.

 

[fatbillybob]

My thinking is - if I get to GT500 level hp and be several hundred lbs lighter - it should be a good car.

Thats really my main reason of looking into the Mustang.

I fell for that for my race class. The jury is still out and not looking good. Maybe I get lucky or more s550s race and we get some concessions. If not the s550 is just a full figured girl by the pool.

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