7th Generation Mustang (S650) Moved to 2022...

[Norm Peterson]

Everything comes at a price. Are you willing to pay a good bit extra for AWD and also pay the penalty for fattening up an already heavy car?

No.

Time to get off the "throw more power at it, now we're heavier, so throw even more power at it and add complexity" treadmill.


Norm

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[Norm Peterson]

Remember these? Of course you do... (please note....these are NOT from Ford, but are the work of a design student)

Well, I spotted a video on Facebook last night that gives a quick glimpse of the left-most model

Concepts are always more extreme than what we end up with. Here, Ford absolutely needs to be paying attention to 6th gen Camaro sales with respect to greenhouse height. Ed Wellburn's love for chopped-top styling isn't working all that well in the market.


Norm

 

[Ace]

True.....this thread started with it being reported that SOP would be March 2022, but now it's May 2022 (not that 2 months is a big deal when we're talking 3+ years from now, but its tough to get a clear picture on next-gen Mustang news )

I can totally see a 2nd refresh for the S550 happening in 2020. Letting the current refresh run for 5 years seems too much for Ford to me

 

[Blue Horse]

No.

Time to get off the "throw more power at it, now we're heavier, so throw even more power at it and add complexity" treadmill.


Norm

Norm,The Mustang started it's decline when Ford introduced the S550 model,weight gain,engine troubles,transmission troubles (MT/AT), poor quality control,suspension problems, including half shafts breaking,paint problems,AC problems,and the list could go on and on.Ford needs to wake up and do the right thing for the Mustang and it's loyal fan/customer base.

 

[jake_zx2]

Norm,The Mustang started it's decline when Ford introduced the S550 model,weight gain,engine troubles,transmission troubles (MT/AT), poor quality control,suspension problems, including half shafts breaking,paint problems,AC problems,and the list could go on and on.Ford needs to wake up and do the right thing for the Mustang and it's loyal fan/customer base.

WHAT?! LMAOOOO

Weight gain; Minor, and insignificant when you consider how much more the car has to offer
Engine troubles; Wait, wasn't that the S197s that were spitting up cylinder 8?
transmission troubles; IT WAS THE EXACT SAME TRANSMISSIONS
Poor quality control; Did the S197s not have fogging headlights, taillights, cheap interior, etc?
Suspension problems; Like what? Problems included, it's still a hell of a lot better than that SRA
Half shafts breaking; Yeah, maybe for the guys running 800+whp on slicks
Paint problems; My S197 had paint bubbling on the hood and dust particles in the paint. My S550 has none of that
AC problems; Very few cars, and a very minor issue

Sounds like a delusional S197 owner trying to defend his inferior car

 

[Norm Peterson]

Weight gain; Minor, and insignificant when you consider how much more the car has to offer

ANY weight gain is significant (in the wrong direction) when the competition posts a weight LOSS - with what's generally considered to be a better basic chassis.

Though I guess I'd have to agree that weight gain wouldn't represent much of a downside to those whose focus runs more toward "technology" and "comfort & convenience".


Norm

 

[jake_zx2]

ANY weight gain is significant (in the wrong direction) when the competition posts a weight LOSS - with what's generally considered to be a better basic chassis.

That chassis improvement also came with quite a significant decrease in size. To increase track, increase cargo space, lower CG, and keep the same length, all while offering a higher quality interior and more advanced chassis and suspension dynamics while only gaining about 80lbs is, frankly, insignificant.

No one was complaining when the Ferrari 458 Italia was about 100lbs heavier than it's predecessor, the F430

 

[Norm Peterson]

That chassis improvement also came with quite a significant decrease in size.

Keep in mind that the Alpha chassis managed to come out lighter than the S550 despite still being about three inches longer in the wheelbase . . . just sayin'

To increase track, lower CG, and keep the same length and cargo space, all while offering a higher quality interior and more advanced chassis and suspension dynamics while only gaining about 80lbs is, frankly, insignificant.

"Only gaining about 80 lbs" is kind of how most car weights keep creeping upward. Only a little at a time, so that most people never notice (and the ones that do, go on to justify the increase at least to themselves). But setting that aside, wasn't the S550 originally supposed to have been lighter than the S197?

No one was complaining when the Ferrari 458 Italia was about 100lbs heavier than it's predecessor, the F430

Kind of a different strata, don't you think?


Norm

 

[jake_zx2]

Keep in mind that the Alpha chassis managed to come out lighter than the S550 despite still being about three inches longer in the wheelbase . . . just sayin'

Wheelbase means very little... overall, the 2 cars are the same length, though the Camaro is narrower and shorter

"Only gaining about 80 lbs" is kind of how most car weights keep creeping upward. Only a little at a time, so that most people never notice (and the ones that do, go on to justify the increase at least to themselves). But setting that aside, wasn't the S550 originally supposed to have been lighter than the S197?

But notice how, though cars are getting heavier, they're also getting better? A 1999 Mustang GT is quite a bit lighter than an S550, yet put them both in ANY scenario imaginable, and the S550 is going to make a joke of the little 2v

Kind of a different strata, don't you think?

Not necessarily... Car moves to a new generation, gets significantly better, yet has a relatively insignificant weight gain as a result. Doesn't mean it isn't better

 

[Norm Peterson]

Wheelbase means very little... overall, the 2 cars are the same length, though the Camaro is narrower and shorter

I'm pretty sure that the weight per inch between the axles amounts to more than the weight per inch in the overhangs

But notice how, though cars are getting heavier, they're also getting better? A 1999 Mustang GT is quite a bit lighter than an S550, yet put them both in ANY scenario imaginable, and the S550 is going to make a joke of the little 2v

Partly because the Coyote makes around 200 HP more than the 2-V modular motor. From somewhere between only a few lbs more to at least 50 lbs less depending on whether the SN95 got aluminum blocks or iron blocks, respectively.

And partly because the triangulated 4-link rear suspension as used in the Fox, SN95, and most RWD GM intermediates had more than its share of handicaps when it came to cornering & handling.

I hope you're not trying to define 'better' in terms of the amount of content that doesn't make the car faster, corner harder, stop better, or subjectively drive any better.

Not necessarily... Car moves to a new generation, gets significantly better, yet has a relatively insignificant weight gain as a result. Doesn't mean it isn't better

You missed my point on this entirely. Ferrari plays to a far more well-heeled crowd, where being seen in one is worth more than the advantages of X amount less weight.


Norm

 

[jake_zx2]

I'm pretty sure that the weight per inch between the axles amounts to more than the weight per inch in the overhangs

Still insignificant, as you were rebutting my comment of the Camaro being smaller with "actually, the wheelbase is longer". It doesn't matter, it's still smaller, thus helping it be lighter

Partly because the Coyote makes around 200 HP more than the 2-V modular motor. From somewhere between only a few lbs more to at least 50 lbs less depending on whether the SN95 got aluminum blocks or iron blocks, respectively.

And partly because the triangulated 4-link rear suspension as used in the Fox, SN95, and most RWD GM intermediates had more than its share of handicaps when it came to cornering & handling.

I hope you're not trying to define 'better' in terms of the amount of content that doesn't make the car faster, corner harder, stop better, or subjectively drive any better.

Those are a bunch of weak excuses. That reads to me as "yes, the car is worse"

I'm defining "better" as, like I said, literally any imaginable scenario. Whether that be amenities, driveability, enjoyment, straight-line speed, cornering Gs, braking distance, LITERALLY ANY ASPECT. Yet the SN95 is about 400lbs lighter... why is it so much worse if, in your world, lighter solely equals better?

You missed my point on this entirely. Ferrari plays to a far more well-heeled crowd, where being seen in one is worth more than the advantages of X amount less weight.

Are you really trying to say that Ferrari doesn't care about performance, while our mustangs are the pinnacle of performance? Laughable

 

[Norm Peterson]

Still insignificant, as you were rebutting my comment of the Camaro being smaller with "actually, the wheelbase is longer". It doesn't matter, it's still smaller, thus helping it be lighter

What I was getting at was that the 6th gen Camaro Is smaller than the 5th gen Camaro, but still bigger in at least one measure than the S550.

Those are a bunch of weak excuses. That reads to me as "yes, the car is worse"

Getting a bit defensive now, aren't we? The S550 had better be able to outperform its 200 HP weaker and technically under-suspended predecessor (rolling on its under-achieving tires). But it shouldn't have needed to add as much weight as it did to get there.

I'm defining "better" as, like I said, literally any imaginable scenario. Whether that be amenities, driveability, enjoyment, straight-line speed, cornering Gs, braking distance, LITERALLY ANY ASPECT. Yet the SN95 is about 400lbs lighter... why is it so much worse if, in your world, lighter solely equals better?

Listen, I'm not defending the SN95. First mention of that car in this discussion was from you.

A 1999 Mustang GT is quite a bit lighter than an S550, yet put them both in ANY scenario imaginable, and the S550 is going to make a joke of the little 2v

What I am going after is this trend to add weight with each generation and mid-cycle refresh . . . every time it's yet another step in the wrong direction, and most everybody (including you) hand-waves it away with "it's only a little heavier". When is it going to stop?

And I do have to question why sporty cars have to be diluted with so many in-car luxuries and amenities, most of which didn't even exist in the not-so-distant past.

Are you really trying to say that Ferrari doesn't care about performance, while our mustangs are the pinnacle of performance? Laughable

Now I know you're going out of your way to intentionally misunderstand. If anything it's a big percentage of Ferrari's customers who are into their car's up-market image more than extracting maximum performance from it, not Ferrari itself. Must be the reason I've never seen one at a track day (though I have seen a McLaren or two).


Norm

 

[GT Pony]

AC problems; Very few cars, and a very minor issue.

Agree with your list except for this one. I'd say the A/C evaporator failure is far from a few and a minor issue. Many threads here about guys losing the A/C from a leaking evaporator. And the repair involves ripping the whole dash out and cost around $1200-1400 if not under warranty.

 

[jake_zx2]

What I was getting at was that the 6th gen Camaro Is smaller than the 5th gen Camaro, but still bigger in at least one measure than the S550.

Except it's not actually bigger than the S550 at all, it just has it's smaller sized oriented in a different manner. Wheelbase means NOTHING in regards to size

Getting a bit defensive now, aren't we? The S550 had better be able to outperform its 200 HP weaker and technically under-suspended predecessor (rolling on its under-achieving tires). But it shouldn't have needed to add as much weight as it did to get there.

Not defensive at all. It's a simple display of how added weight means NOTHING if you get added capabilities along with it. You say it shouldn't have needed to add so much weight... so would you also say that the S197 shouldn't have needed its 200lb weight gain over the SN95? Then why did you buy one if it's so much worse by being heavier by more than the S550 is?

Listen, I'm not defending the SN95. First mention of that car in this discussion was from you.

Okay, so you're saying the fact that it weighs less means NOTHING, because it's nowhere near as good of a car? Would you look at that

What I am going after is this trend to add weight with each generation and mid-cycle refresh . . . every time it's yet another step in the wrong direction, and most everybody (including you) hand-waves it away with "it's only a little heavier". When is it going to stop?

But weight savings are being made when you look at what's mandated to be in cars... if progress weren't being made, the Mustang would weigh well over 4000lbs (Look at the Challenger... on a chassis from the 90s, but updated to maintain today's mandates of safety). The point is, it's not going to stop. But, if the cars are getting better in every imaginable aspect, why are you complaining? Do you really want cars to be better, or are you just looking for a reason to bitch?

And I do have to question why sporty cars have to be diluted with so many in-car luxuries and amenities, most of which didn't even exist in the not-so-distant past.

They don't. Go buy a Miata. It seems that's what you're REALLY looking for a Mustang to become

And ultimately, all these amenities are nice for those of us who want them, and easy to do away with for those who don't. People who want cars lighter will strip a dash whether it's made of late-90s GM plastic or 2018 Mercedes leather... However, the people looking for those upscale amenities simply won't buy the car if it has that plastic dash

Now I know you're going out of your way to intentionally misunderstand. If anything it's a big percentage of Ferrari's customers who are into their car's up-market image more than extracting maximum performance from it, not Ferrari itself. Must be the reason I've never seen one at a track day (though I have seen a McLaren or two).

I don't think it's me misunderstanding, it's you trying to change your intent every time you're rebutted. You first say it's an unrelatable scenario, then when I show the relation you blame it on Ferrari not actually building performance cars, and now you're saying that the customers want luxury cars, but Ferrari still builds performance cars. What is it? Bottom line is that Ferrari, when going from one generation to the next, gained weight despite making a SIGNIFICANTLY better car in every imaginable aspect, just as Ford has done with the S550. And I'm sorry you've never seen one at a track day, you must not live in a very upscale area. On the other hand, I've never been to a track day that didn't have AT LEAST 1 Ferrari

Agree with your list except for this one. I'd say the A/C evaporator failure is far from a few and a minor issue. Many threads here about guys losing the A/C from a leaking evaporator. And the repair involves ripping the whole dash out and cost around $1200-1400 if not under warranty.

Honestly, I've never looked into it much, I didn't think it affected many cars as I've only ever seen it come up twice

 

[Norm Peterson]

Except it's not actually bigger than the S550 at all, it just has it's smaller sized oriented in a different manner. Wheelbase means NOTHING in regards to size

Length is a wash, front track is a wash, width and rear track almost a wash, and the Camaro's shorter height is offset somewhat by the (lighter) greenhouse height being significantly shorter than the Mustang's.

Not defensive at all. It's a simple display of how added weight means NOTHING if you get added capabilities along with it.

As good a definition of defensive as I could ever come up with . . .

You say it shouldn't have needed to add so much weight... so would you also say that the S197 shouldn't have needed its 200lb weight gain over the SN95? Then why did you buy one if it's so much worse by being heavier by more than the S550 is?

I've known from the get-go that my S197 is heavier than it could have been, and I'm not afraid to admit as much. Or that it has other shortcomings. I'm not afraid to complain that in a couple of respects even my '08 is more luxurious than I really need. I know you're going to flame me over noting that the S197 wheelbase being about 6" longer than the SN95's must have had something to do with that weight gain. But those are discussions for places like S197Forums or AllFordMustangs.

Would I have opted for a lightweighted S197 if it had been available? Absolutely. But not at S197 Shelby Mustang GT (not the GT500) pricing and ADM'ing.

Okay, so you're saying the fact that it weighs less means NOTHING, because it's nowhere near as good of a car? Would you look at that

That's only what you want to think I'm saying. Not much I'm ever going to be able to do about that, I guess.

But weight savings are being made when you look at what's mandated to be in cars... if progress weren't being made, the Mustang would weigh well over 4000lbs (Look at the Challenger... on a chassis from the 90s, but updated to maintain today's mandates of safety).

The Challenger is kind of the poster-boy for the direction the Mustang should never, ever take. Though that might be a reasonable target for a reborn 1960's Mercury Cougar, heavier on the amenities, lighter on outright performance unless throwing more engine and still more weight at is a good enough answer for you.

The point is, it's not going to stop. But, if the cars are getting better in every imaginable aspect, why are you complaining? Do you really want cars to be better, or are you just looking for a reason to bitch?

Your definition of 'better' must be quite different from mine, and must have a lot of "more for the sake of more" in it. Any reason "enough" can't be enough?

They don't. Go buy a Miata. It seems that's what you're REALLY looking for a Mustang to become

No again. I'm not trying to "Miata-ize" the Mustang. Only keep it from becoming "Challenger-ized" (BTW, thanks for mentioning the Challenger).

And ultimately, all these amenities are nice for those of us who want them, and easy to do away with for those who don't. People who want cars lighter will strip a dash whether it's made of late-90s GM plastic or 2018 Mercedes leather...

I hope we both understand that it's nowhere near as simple as that. Not with everything electronically tied to everything else.

It should have been left easier by Ford not including as much even in base trim, or requiring unrelated items you don't want and wouldn't use just to get the thing or two that you really do want. PP2 requiring 301A is almost its own contradiction.

I don't think it's me misunderstanding, it's you trying to change your intent every time you're rebutted.

First mention of Ferrari was from you, correct? I know I didn't drag it into this thread. Anyway, my intent hasn't changed, only the way I've phrased it so that you might understand the thought I'm trying to put across. Apparently without any success here either.

You must have missed where I mentioned seeing a McLaren . . . it was running in my own run group, actually, and that white-ish thing at the left side above the wing in the picture below is a point-by being given.

. Within a few minutes walking distance of my house there's been a Lamborghini that gets fairly regular use about town, and Kerbeck/Palmyra is only a few minutes away by car, so it's not like I live in a depressed area.


Norm

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