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7 speed DCT vs 10r80 for Drag racing? Road racing?

Zooks527

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but if I put a dct into M mode, will a gear change happen if I dont initiate it?
If it's like the other's I've seen, if you drop your speed so low that the engine starts to lag it will initiate a downshift by itself.
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V00D00

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Yes.

F430 and Gallardo - probably a bit primitive these days, but you're still working through an electro-hydraulic system that actually does all the physical work. Didn't like the feel on launch at all, way too much like a conventional torque-converter AT, and there was a noticeable (to me, anyway) delay on upshift even in some pretty spirited driving.


Norm
:headbang: those aren't DCT transmissions. They are the automated manuals that use hydraulics to actuate a standard single disc clutch and shift forks. They are notoriously jerky and dont really offer performance benefits over a well driven traditional manual.

I take it you're never driven a DCT car and have been criticizing them based off of the poor performance of SMG transmissions. Makes sense. Go drive a decent DCT and come back.
i was going to say, sounds like SMG tech, not dct. certainly not the same. I can agree, smg driving experience is sub-par to manuals

If it's like the other's I've seen, if you drop your speed so low that the engine starts to lag it will initiate a downshift by itself.
youre a week+ late to that convo- but if you allow rpms to drop too far in a manual, what happens? ive never seen tech defined by what happens when used incorrectly/improperly
 

Eritas

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Handing off the logic and mechanical operation to the electronics and hydraulics is still the same. The driver has still been isolated from the operation by the automation.

I did say "a bit primitive", did I not? Maybe "a lot primitive", though the difference between "a bit" and "a lot" there doesn't mean much here.

So yeah there can be and has been improvement - in design detail. But not in philosophy or objective, which is right back to the original discussion about the difference between "manual" and "automatic".
In a general philosophical sense, sure. But you can't complain about the jerky performance and your dislike of SMG transmissions when discussing DCT transmissions.

So yeah there can be and has been improvement - in design detail. But not in philosophy or objective, which is right back to the original discussion about the difference between "manual" and "automatic".

All this resistance to accepting comparisons between DCTs and conventional automatics, SMGs, etc., tells me that there's an unhealthy amount of vanity surrounding DCTs just because they're the newest thing on the consumer-level scene.
There's an unhealthy amount of ignorance from people who complain about things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and unwillingness to have an educated conversation due to stubborn arrogance.

You can't complain about a DCT having slow, lazy, slushy shifts "like an automatic" because modern performance DCTs don't. You can't complain about drivetrain losses through torque converters because DCTs don't have them. You can't complain about jerkyness of SMG transmissions, which have single clutches and are in fact, even more manual-like in construction than DCTs, because DCTs have two clutches and are a significantly different technology.
 

Darkane

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that would be the ultimate track weapon, and why i believe A-350 DIDNT come with one, and B- 500 will. if you swap that, no point in buying a 500 for more $$

DCT alone is equal to 50hp+ advantage over manuals. M3s were trappping +5-8mph better DCT vs equal 6MTs



you wont feel a lag in DCT, in fact. if i can find video, the car pulls you forward. it was quite a thrill
I’ve been reading a lot of your posts, your numbers are always all over the place. So you have reference a dct M3 would beat the manual that bad?

Also take a good look at this. 1.4mph, that’s all.

Extremely apples to apples.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.mot...8/2018-porsche-911-gt3-first-test-review/amp/

There’s also the video to view.

I’m not refuting dct isn’t better, but it’s not lightyears in overall performance. 3 tenths and 1.4mph over 1600ft from a standstill. The numbers are greatly reduced if it’s a from a roll.

Regardless over a long ass track, it added up.
 

V00D00

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I’ve been reading a lot of your posts, your numbers are always all over the place. So you have reference a dct M3 would beat the manual that bad?

Also take a good look at this. 1.4mph, that’s all.

Extremely apples to apples.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.mot...8/2018-porsche-911-gt3-first-test-review/amp/

There’s also the video to view.

I’m not refuting dct isn’t better, but it’s not lightyears in overall performance. 3 tenths and 1.4mph over 1600ft from a standstill. The numbers are greatly reduced if it’s a from a roll.

Regardless over a long ass track, it added up.
My #s are verifiable and repeatable. i think you may confused with the data I provided. in general terms, ive shown what superchrged V8 DCT cars can do, with HP/weight ratios.
Ive shown DCT in 2 shift modes, most aggressive shifting vs least, in which case the least aggressive is still shifting faster than traditional auto's. In all cases best case least aggressive vs worst case most aggressive, the aggressive dct shifting still wins

and then, DCT vs 6spd. and yes, from any perspective beyond 0-60, the dct, when all else is equal, is 5-8mph better than equal or more hp 6mt.

from Either A- the top cars at the time, and B- owners that went from that level 6spd, to that level DCT.

is there a specific matchup you would like to see? I can show an N/A DCT car that pulls away from a supercharged one, and traps several MPH faster..

the supercharched 6mt was making 470-480 or even higher, vs 420-430hp DCT. in every scenarioe, realword, and telemetry data, the DCT is equal to a 50hp advantage over manual
And remember, this is ALL the same exact type of car. E92 M3

So I fail to see how there could be a more applicable apples-apples comparison. V8, supercharged, RWD, coupe at 3500lbs DCT vs V8 supercharged, rwd coupe at 3500lbs only differences being the 6mt, and dct. power delivery, power application and driver skill all equal. All that changes for the GT500, is the platform/weight. any other car is apples to oranges, in both, drive tires, engine, engine configuration and forced induction method
 

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V00D00

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I’ve been reading a lot of your posts, your numbers are always all over the place. So you have reference a dct M3 would beat the manual that bad?

Also take a good look at this. 1.4mph, that’s all.

Extremely apples to apples.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.mot...8/2018-porsche-911-gt3-first-test-review/amp/

There’s also the video to view.

I’m not refuting dct isn’t better, but it’s not lightyears in overall performance. 3 tenths and 1.4mph over 1600ft from a standstill. The numbers are greatly reduced if it’s a from a roll.

Regardless over a long ass track, it added up.
I can find the dynos for almost all of the cars listed if you would like more info.

the red highlighted are excluded because they either have headers ( not available until recently + more boost ( more than 7.5-8psi) for comparisons sake, or built motors

the Supercharged E92 m3 manual trans wolrd record is highlighted at the bottom - 530hp i think
and then bolt-on DCT m3 runs listed

Actually, seems to be a bit more than 50hp.. if you look at it.

i can provide 60-130 times for these cars as well
b1.JPG
b2.JPG
b3.JPG
 

Norm Peterson

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In a general philosophical sense, sure.
This ↑↑↑


But you can't complain about the jerky performance and your dislike of SMG transmissions when discussing DCT transmissions.
Others have complained bout jerkiness in easy driving. I've been staying away from that. A DCT will still "launch" like an SMG, which itself is a lot like a conventional AT.

The 'feel' on launch with a DCT is going to be more similar to a torque converter'd AT than to a conventional 3-pedal MT. And if you don't like that kind of feel, know that it would be an annoyance every time you moved away from a full stop. Those who don't mind driving automatics, which I'm guessing includes most of the people in this discussion, aren't likely to really understand that.

And a paddle shifter is still a paddle shifter - a pair of glorified microswitches with fancy handles. And a manual-command transmission is not a manual-operation transmission.

You can't complain about a DCT having slow, lazy, slushy shifts "like an automatic" because modern performance DCTs don't.
Don't think I ever made that complaint. If anything, a DCT being very good in driving that's "track-pace" is more apt to end up being too 'crisp' or even harsh, than slow/lazy/soft/slushy/whatever in easy street driving.. What I can and do complain about is having to use only one foot to get the car moving. It's like being demoted to TRAINEE status.

You can't complain about drivetrain losses through torque converters because DCTs don't have them.
Maybe instead of making things up that you'd like to think I said you should go back through this thread and re-read what I really did post. I know I'd never post that DCTs had torque converters.


Norm
 

Eritas

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A DCT will still "launch" like an SMG, which itself is a lot like a conventional AT.
Not at all.

The 'feel' on launch with a DCT is going to be more similar to a torque converter'd AT than to a conventional 3-pedal MT. And if you don't like that kind of feel, know that it would be an annoyance every time you moved away from a full stop. Those who don't mind driving automatics, which I'm guessing includes most of the people in this discussion, aren't likely to really understand that.
Nope. Your lack of experience with DCTs are apparent. I'm not biased either way. I owned a DCT M3 and I have a 6-spd Mustang. I'm just refuting ignorance and misconceptions.

Don't think I ever made that complaint. If anything, a DCT being very good in driving that's "track-pace" is more apt to end up being too 'crisp' or even harsh, than slow/lazy/soft/slushy/whatever in easy street driving.. What I can and do complain about is having to use only one foot to get the car moving. It's like being demoted to TRAINEE status.
My M3 was harsh and then I did a DCT tune and it made the shifts a lot smoother. PDKs are smooth when going fast, or slow during daily driving -much better than my M3's DCT.

Okay big man, go back to hand-cranking your cars too :giggle:

Maybe instead of making things up that you'd like to think I said you should go back through this thread and re-read what I really did post. I know I'd never post that DCTs had torque converters.
Maybe take your own advice and realize I never said you posted that DCTs had torque converters.
 

Darkane

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My #s are verifiable and repeatable. i think you may confused with the data I provided. in general terms, ive shown what superchrged V8 DCT cars can do, with HP/weight ratios.
Ive shown DCT in 2 shift modes, most aggressive shifting vs least, in which case the least aggressive is still shifting faster than traditional auto's. In all cases best case least aggressive vs worst case most aggressive, the aggressive dct shifting still wins

and then, DCT vs 6spd. and yes, from any perspective beyond 0-60, the dct, when all else is equal, is 5-8mph better than equal or more hp 6mt.

from Either A- the top cars at the time, and B- owners that went from that level 6spd, to that level DCT.

is there a specific matchup you would like to see? I can show an N/A DCT car that pulls away from a supercharged one, and traps several MPH faster..

the supercharched 6mt was making 470-480 or even higher, vs 420-430hp DCT. in every scenarioe, realword, and telemetry data, the DCT is equal to a 50hp advantage over manual
And remember, this is ALL the same exact type of car. E92 M3

So I fail to see how there could be a more applicable apples-apples comparison. V8, supercharged, RWD, coupe at 3500lbs DCT vs V8 supercharged, rwd coupe at 3500lbs only differences being the 6mt, and dct. power delivery, power application and driver skill all equal. All that changes for the GT500, is the platform/weight. any other car is apples to oranges, in both, drive tires, engine, engine configuration and forced induction method
Did you read and watch the head to head I posted??
 

V00D00

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Did you read and watch the head to head I posted??
i read an article of a car that is apples to oranges, with 0 data to analyze individually, and less data to cross reference.

Have you read what i posted?

Better question is: What parts, specifically, of what i posted are NOT directly applicable, and why
 

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Darkane

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i read an article of a car that is apples to oranges, with 0 data to analyze individually, and less data to cross reference.

Have you read what i posted?

Better question is: What parts, specifically, of what i posted are NOT directly applicable, and why
Different drivers, days, tracks and preps.

Im just trying to be completely non biased. That’s all.

Also, if you think the motor trend testing is Apple to oranges, I don’t know what to say. It’s literally the same car, PDK vs Manual, same driver on the same day and surface.

That’s as scientifically accurate as possible. The results speak for themselves.
 

V00D00

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Different drivers, days, tracks and preps.

Im just trying to be completely non biased. That’s all.

Also, if you think the motor trend testing is Apple to oranges, I don’t know what to say. It’s literally the same car, PDK vs Manual, same driver on the same day and surface.

That’s as scientifically accurate as possible. The results speak for themselves.
and if i told you most of those names are the same drivers, at the same track, some even on the same days? or even the manual driver is a better manual driver than the rest of them? thats as unbiased as can be. 3 of those top DCT drivers, traded in the 6mt, for dct, as they could not achieve expected results.

cant get ore quantifiable data than that for an Apples to Apples. yours cites 1 guy, 1 car, 1 place, with a car that is at least 50% different than the topics car, and offer no technical information
 

Darkane

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and if i told you most of those names are the same drivers, at the same track, some even on the same days? or even the manual driver is a better manual driver than the rest of them? thats as unbiased as can be. 3 of those top DCT drivers, traded in the 6mt, for dct, as they could not achieve expected results.

cant get ore quantifiable data than that for an Apples to Apples. yours cites 1 guy, 1 car, 1 place, with a car that is at least 50% different than the topics car, and offer no technical information
Look, all I’m saying is the information in post 143 regarding equal DCT to manual 6sp M3s should NOT be 5-8mph difference.

And I stand by the proof I assigned, the equal car in dct and manual was tested back to back in a controlled environment. The result? 1.4 measly MPH.

That’s not hard to understand. That’s it, that’s my argument. 5-8mph is outrageous.
 

V00D00

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Look, all I’m saying is the information in post 143 regarding equal DCT to manual 6sp M3s should NOT be 5-8mph difference.

And I stand by the proof I assigned, the equal car in dct and manual was tested back to back in a controlled environment. The result? 1.4 measly MPH.

That’s not hard to understand. That’s it, that’s my argument. 5-8mph is outrageous.
then all im saying is that you are wrong, but I can , and HAVE proven it. Hop over to M3post and ask if DCtT cars are faster than 6MT cars, when all else is equal, hell, even if 6MT has more HP and less weight.
There are literally years and hundreds of quantified, verified and dissected data to prove it. This DCT thing is not new to everyone

Lastly, what If I told you MotorTrend has a habit of not knowing how to drive? specifically in the sub 4-5 Et&MPh range lolololol

Moo;10404761 said:
E92 M3 DCT 1/4 times

M/T 12.8 sec @ 110.9 mph

C&D 12.4 sec. @ 114 mph

Stock Real-world record 12.2 @ 114mph

:confused2
 

Darkane

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then all im saying is that you are wrong, but I can , and HAVE proven it. Hop over to M3post and ask if DCtT cars are faster than 6MT cars, when all else is equal, hell, even if 6MT has more HP and less weight.
There are literally years and hundreds of quantified, verified and dissected data to prove it. This DCT thing is not new to everyone

Lastly, what If I told you MotorTrend has a habit of not knowing how to drive? specifically in the sub 4-5 Et&MPh range lolololol
then all im saying is that you are wrong, but I can , and HAVE proven it. Hop over to M3post and ask if DCtT cars are faster than 6MT cars, when all else is equal, hell, even if 6MT has more HP and less weight.
There are literally years and hundreds of quantified, verified and dissected data to prove it. This DCT thing is not new to everyone

Lastly, what If I told you MotorTrend has a habit of not knowing how to drive? specifically in the sub 4-5 Et&MPh range lolololol
it doesn’t matter if they can drive or not. It’s the SAME driver. Think.

Also watch the video, he can drive.

It seems I’m done here, you’re in a bubble and can’t comprehend someone else’s data.
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