7 speed DCT vs 10r80 for Drag racing? Road racing?

[Andy13186]

Until 3 to 4 lets go.

https://www.teambeefcakeracing.com/mcleod-88098.html Clutches and steels are now available for the 10r80. I dont think anyone has ever had a problem with 3-4 on the 10r80 though, its 6-7th I believe and only around 1000 rwhp

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[Eritas]

No. That would be a manual mode, which isn't the same thing (and doesn't need to have a companion automatic mode available). Though for some, I'm sure it'd be a good enough simulation.

You can't have it both ways. Either an automatic programmed to only shift via driver commands is a "manual" (by your definition) or a DCT is a manual with an "automatic" mode.

I think the trick in making it even possible would be to be able to simultaneously disengage the clutch to the gear you're shifting from while engaging the clutch to the gear you're shifting to. While still being able to disengage both at the same time.

But you're right, what you'd end up with would be heavier and more complex.

I guess you could make a clutch engage and another disengage simultaneously while pushing a pedal down in a preselector style layout, but how is that any different than grabbing a paddle? In both cases, a simple input changes the gear .You don't have the individual mechanisms of pushing a pedal down to disengage the clutch before shifting a lever with your hand befrob releasing said pedal.

 

[Andy13186]

Circle D converters now available for the 10r80 https://www.teambeefcakeracing.com/circled-10r80.html

 

[bluebeastsrt]

Circle D converters now available for the 10r80 https://www.teambeefcakeracing.com/circled-10r80.html

Holy sh!t. It’s almost not fair. Someone please come up with the 10 speed swap for the 15-17s.

 

[Andy13186]

Holy sh!t. It’s almost not fair. Someone please come up with the 10 speed swap for the 15-17s.

6r80 holds up well too as far as I know. IDK whats actually better. I end up paddle shifting my 10 speed though 95% of the time I may prefer the 6r if operating it as a normal auto since less hunting. I had a 6r80 on a fx4 f150 but all my sports cars had been manual so I got too used to full paddle use on the 10r. The 10r rips though and shifts harder and faster than anything else ive experienced.

 

[bluebeastsrt]

6r80 holds up well too as far as I know. IDK whats actually better. I end up paddle shifting my 10 speed though 95% of the time I may prefer the 6r if operating it as a normal auto since less hunting. I had a 6r80 on a fx4 f150 but all my sports cars had been manual so I got too used to full paddle use on the 10r. The 10r rips though and shifts harder and faster than anything else ive experienced.

I’m not worried about the 6r80 holding up. I’m 700 to the wheels launching on a 3800 stall. I want those extra gears to keep me in my power ban better. I’m betting I could cut 3-4ths off my current time. With a stalled 10 speed.

 

[Norm Peterson]

You can't have it both ways. Either an automatic programmed to only shift via driver commands is a "manual" (by your definition) or a DCT is a manual with an "automatic" mode.

I'd be much more willing to consider a DCT to be a manual with an automatic mode, though I'll note that I'd still find any AT-like assisted clutch engagement for 1st gear to pull away from a full stop an unpleasant artifact of its automated capability.

An AT programmed to only shift on manual command amounts to the way I drive any AT car (when I have to drive one of those things at all), They're only simulating MT use, and not very well at that. Even fans of ATs complain about shift lag under manual command.


Norm

 

[V00D00]

Yeah, mentioned in the "vs" thread, I mean, holy shit, the ZL1 1LE, has been the poster child for "Real track cars use manuals" (this almost has to be in response to the new GT500 ...)

Side note: now we need a GT350 with the DCT and the new block and another 30HP, GT350 with 556HP + 7-speed DCT, yes please

that would be the ultimate track weapon, and why i believe A-350 DIDNT come with one, and B- 500 will. if you swap that, no point in buying a 500 for more $$

DCT alone is equal to 50hp+ advantage over manuals. M3s were trappping +5-8mph better DCT vs equal 6MTs

I'd be much more willing to consider a DCT to be a manual with an automatic mode, though I'll note that I'd still find any AT-like assisted clutch engagement for 1st gear to pull away from a full stop an unpleasant artifact of its automated capability.

An AT programmed to only shift on manual command amounts to the way I drive any AT car (when I have to drive one of those things at all), They're only simulating MT use, and not very well at that. Even fans of ATs complain about shift lag under manual command.


Norm

you wont feel a lag in DCT, in fact. if i can find video, the car pulls you forward. it was quite a thrill

 

[Norm Peterson]

you wont feel a lag in DCT, in fact. if i can find video, the car pulls you forward. it was quite a thrill

For the 'lag' part I was referring to conventional automatics only, replying to Eritas and following his previous convention.

I would hope DCTs aren't laggy about their shifting, even moreso than with conventional automatics. Shift lag with a DCT could get really annoying if it sucked you into tapping the paddle (or the lever) a second time when nothing happened right away with the first tap. And then proceeded to upshift twice, skipping the gear you intended and taking you at your "word" that upshifting two gears is what you did want.


Norm

 

[V00D00]

For the 'lag' part I was referring to conventional automatics only, replying to Eritas and following his previous convention.

I would hope DCTs aren't laggy about their shifting, even moreso than with conventional automatics. Shift lag with a DCT could get really annoying if it sucked you into tapping the paddle (or the lever) a second time when nothing happened right away with the first tap. And then proceeded to upshift twice, skipping the gear you intended and taking you at your "word" that upshifting two gears is what you did want.


Norm

i dont think thats an issue. in over 30k miles, mostly aggressive/racing, ive not once double shifted, nor ever saw/heard of. its a very deliberate action (shifting) that i cant see skipping gears happening

 

[Eritas]

I'd be much more willing to consider a DCT to be a manual with an automatic mode, though I'll note that I'd still find any AT-like assisted clutch engagement for 1st gear to pull away from a full stop an unpleasant artifact of its automated capability.

An AT programmed to only shift on manual command amounts to the way I drive any AT car (when I have to drive one of those things at all), They're only simulating MT use, and not very well at that. Even fans of ATs complain about shift lag under manual command.


Norm

Which DCT equipped cars have you driven? Some are much better than others, and there is a learning process to them. Once you figure out how the clutch engages, you can modulate the throttle accordingly for consistent and smooth pull aways.

It sounds like youre referring to the delay from a paddle command to the shift action when talking about "lag", correct?

 

[dirty-max]

Which DCT equipped cars have you driven? Some are much better than others, and there is a learning process to them. Once you figure out how the clutch engages, you can modulate the throttle accordingly for consistent and smooth pull aways.

It sounds like youre referring to the delay from a paddle command to the shift action when talking about "lag", correct?

I just drove a buddies 2018 VW Passat GT with a DCT and now I definitely want one its insane how fast they shift and they take off so smooth as well!

 

[Norm Peterson]

It sounds like youre referring to the delay from a paddle command to the shift action when talking about "lag", correct?

Yes.

F430 and Gallardo - probably a bit primitive these days, but you're still working through an electro-hydraulic system that actually does all the physical work. Didn't like the feel on launch at all, way too much like a conventional torque-converter AT, and there was a noticeable (to me, anyway) delay on upshift even in some pretty spirited driving.


Norm

 

[Eritas]

Yes.

F430 and Gallardo - probably a bit primitive these days, but you're still working through an electro-hydraulic system that actually does all the physical work. Didn't like the feel on launch at all, way too much like a conventional torque-converter AT, and there was a noticeable (to me, anyway) delay on upshift even in some pretty spirited driving.


Norm

those aren't DCT transmissions. They are the automated manuals that use hydraulics to actuate a standard single disc clutch and shift forks. They are notoriously jerky and dont really offer performance benefits over a well driven traditional manual.

I take it you're never driven a DCT car and have been criticizing them based off of the poor performance of SMG transmissions. Makes sense. Go drive a decent DCT and come back.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Handing off the logic and mechanical operation to the electronics and hydraulics is still the same. The driver has still been isolated from the operation by the automation.

I did say "a bit primitive", did I not? Maybe "a lot primitive", though the difference between "a bit" and "a lot" there doesn't mean much here.

So yeah there can be and has been improvement - in design detail. But not in philosophy or objective, which is right back to the original discussion about the difference between "manual" and "automatic".


All this resistance to accepting comparisons between DCTs and conventional automatics, SMGs, etc., tells me that there's an unhealthy amount of vanity surrounding DCTs just because they're the newest thing on the consumer-level scene.


Norm

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