500 WHP, N/A on 93 octane, possible?

[AZ18yote]

Yeah, that's a full-send, never-go-full-retard build. Though one time they did show a video of using it to get groceries

I mean ya gotta eat right?

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[engineermike]

I think it’s totally doable. Raise compression to 13/1 (12/1 is actually 87 octane compatible), upgrade cams and intake manifold. The stock manifold probably won’t support peak power at 8000 and shifts at 8500 that will be required. 110 hp/liter isn’t outlandish, even emissions legal.

 

[Strokerswild]

5.2 Aluminator XS, anyone?

 

[Strokerswild]

Dare I say...7.3 Godzilla

 

[engineermike]

12/1 isn't really 87 compatible. The ECU just pulls timing (up to 30 degrees?) to compensate. ..

The Borderline Knock tables are calibrated for 87. The PCM is allowed to pull a maximum of 10 deg spark from the 87 octane tables . For reference, at 7000 rpm, the commanded borderline spark is around 20 deg (subject to half a dozen corrections). It can add a maximum of 10 deg but will most likely hit some other spark limit such as pre-ignition, cylinder pressure, spark IPC, or MBT before the entire 10 is added. Heck, Mazda is running 13/1 compression on 87 and Ferrari as high as 15/1 presumably on premium. There's more power in the compression ratio for sure, even on 93.

I've also seen the dyno's on 8000+ rpm Coyote's, there's no more power up there, just noise. The only reason to raise the limiter is to extend out the nice flat spot in the power curve up top.

I'm not saying to just increase compression and spin it to 8500. The stock coyote camshaft duration and intake manifold runner length are going to handicap the top end. I was referring to spinning it that high after the camshaft and manifold were upgraded.

 

[engineermike]

Interesting, and detailed as always. Not sure you can really compare a 4-banger or a Ferrari motor to the Coyote though

The air/fuel mixture doesn’t really know how many cylinders there are or who the manufacturer was, but it does know if the fuel was direct injected and what the compression ratio is. My point is that the technology employed by the coyote is very similar to the Mazda and Ferrari (gdi, dohc, tivct, NA) with very similar BMEP’s so it can be useful to benchmark against them.

Can't be cheap either way. So, maybe it can be done, but should you? Record chasing aside, it really doesn't seem like a cost effective way to hit the goalpost of 500 "streetable" horsepower. My vote remains e85 or Whipple that bitch.

It’s definitely not my thing but who am I to judge..... I’m on a similar lonely path of trying to maximize power while strictly sticking to 93 (no meth, e85, or even water injection).

 

[engineermike]

You mean to tell me that Ferrari's breath the same air as a lowly Ford?!

“Here's Why the Mustang's 5.0-Liter V-8 Is More Impressive Than Ferrari's V-12“

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a32157287/bmep-engine-performance-measurment-explained/

 

[Strokerswild]

It’s definitely not my thing but who am I to judge..... I’m on a similar lonely path of trying to maximize power while strictly sticking to 93 (no meth, e85, or even water injection).

You're not alone. I've thought long and hard about 500WHP in my '15, as it seems to be a sweet spot for a fully usable road car. And I'm an engine guy, and enjoy dialing in something to the Nth degree without forced induction.

 

[WildHorse]

My vote remains e85 or Whipple that bitch.

OP asked for NA application. Not everybody has access to pump E85, and not everybody wants to go FI either. Some like the NA game. I reference Steeda ONLY for the engine, which happens to be a gen 3.

Recipe:

• Lund Racing nGauge with C/E85 Tune & Transbrake Tune <- C is for VP c10 (for consistent stoich)
• Bret Barber (Air Flow Solutions) Ported Cobra Jet Intake
• Heat Shield Products Cobra Jet Intake Wrap
• Bret Barber (Air Flow Solutions) Ported 2018 Heads
• Comp Cams Stage 3 N/A Camshafts
• VMP Monoblade Throttle Body
• Steeda Pro Flow Closed Lid Cold Air Intake
• American Racing 1-7/8” Long Tube Headers

There ya go. Simple enough. If funds allow. There's nothing unstreeable about that engine.

 

[NGOT8R]

For those, who don’t make 500+ rwhp, don’t get too bent out of shape about it. As stated before, I think having a tune that is safe and spot on is more important. There may also be other variables that determine whether one car performs better on a dyno than another with the same mods. It can be as simple as fuel quality, or even better engine tolerances during the build process. I can’t think of anything else that I can do, short of adding cams and porting heads to help me get there and we all know that is a lot of work and $$$ for the amount of gains. Just not worth it IMO.

 

[Nuked]

You're not alone. I've thought long and hard about 500WHP in my '15, as it seems to be a sweet spot for a fully usable road car. And I'm an engine guy, and enjoy dialing in something to the Nth degree without forced induction.

I agree with both of you on the 93 thing. Problem is to get 500whp you are going to have to tune it on the ragged edge, that is a recipe for disaster on pump 93. Too many variables from weather conditions, fuel quality etc. A 3rd gen coyote does have some built in benefits that would make it easier though. Higher compression, 4 knock sensors and the direct injection. The 4 knock sensors would let you push the tune harder, and could enable the per cylinder knock reduction. That would yield more consistent HP numbers. It has been awhile since I messed with DI, but I remember there being a way you could alter when the injector sprayed vs crank angle. IIRC, making it earlier made more power? You just had to be careful not to wash down the cylinder walls. I think it was BMW that ran into this issue in the early days.

 

[WildHorse]

with DI

Ask any reputable tuner, the DI just gets in the way. Anyways, forgot 500 hp on 93 part haha. Still can be done. But I'd add a can of octanium just to be safe. Stoich remains the same with it.

 

[engineermike]

I’ve been tweaking my gdi pump and injection settings almost daily. There’s a lot there to learn but it does pay dividends. You can alter the pump pressure, injector start of injection timing, and end of injection limits. The stock gt has the whole gdi system pretty much optimized but when fuel demands rise due to air flow improvements, the tuning can be optimized further. It is absolutely a fascinating system that I definitely wouldn’t write off from the Arsenal.

 

[Nuked]

Ask any reputable tuner, the DI just gets in the way. Anyways, forgot 500 hp on 93 part haha. Still can be done. But I'd add a can of octanium just to be safe. Stoich remains the same with it.

DI offers a lot of possibilities. It is the reason why you can run the compression ratios these engines do now. More power, better economy and cleaner emissions. There is no downside to any of those aside from the learning curve needed to maximize their potential.

 

[markmurfie]

Heres a visual of how to make 500HP on 93 octane. limit the torque output to no more than 400ftlbs and carry it out into the highest RPM you can, and it can be done. Doesn't even need to be 400 the higher you go. This requires an engine that breaths very well in the higher RPMs.

Something that might be a bit more recognizable.

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