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Ben James

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I’m actually heading out today to meet up with a large group of other Mustang enthusiasts that want to know the ins and outs of this system for performance testing as well.

long story short:

near the battery is a coil type current sensor on the negative lead. Any earth cables you want to connect directly to the negative terminal of the battery have to go through this coil for the BMS to accurately guage power usage.

near the main fuse box in the engine bay is another smaller coil sensor coming from the alternator positive lead, and this tells the BMS how much current is being created.

when replacing with a new battery you should reset the BMS via 5 high beam/3 brake method or Forscan. If replacing with a Lithium it is a must, as you have to clear the days in service and measured floating voltage history.

there is a way to remove the Bms control altogether and run the system as per a standard old School alternator that does 14.4v at all times (disconnect negative sensor and positive) but I haven’t done it to check the results long term (possible over temp/current of alternator)

instead, you go into Forscan, reset the Bms, then under the body control module settings (not as built, the tab underneath) change the battery type to an AGM variant (similar charge attributes, I chose the 70Ah one), and select the BMS to be NONE (three choices, the default is PWM, then there is linear and lastly NONE-OFF).

On first startup after the changes you will see your voltage charge rate going up to 14.4v, indicating the BMS is actually still doing things, however now it’s job is just simply to make sure that the battery is fully charged (at what ever voltage the two sensors indicate equaibrium). For a Lithiumthis ends up being around 13.5-13.8 volts.

After 8 hours of monitoring the battery for history to be accumulated, the BMS will now charge up the battery to full, and not stop charging until the negative sensor and positive sensor (plus other currents) equalize indicating a fully charged battery state.

it will then monitor and try to keep the current perfectly matched so you battery isn’t being used, and isn’t being overcharged.

every time you start your car, regardless of whether you drive off straight away or sit parked for a while, the BMS will ensure the battery is fully charged first, and it monitors the alternator to give a measured current that keeps both the battery and alternator in operating limits (good for hot climates).


Quick explanation of BMS modes;

PWM: a pulse width modulation signal is used to negotiate charging and the BMS will charge only if it thinks the system needs it. Because the system does not cater for lithiums, it can’t quite figure out the battery charge state, and assumes if it’s over 12.8v it’s ok… for lithiums this voltage is under 20% left (not ok). Typically the BMS will charge up the battery a little on startup, then stop charging when you start to move, only charging on decelerating and if the voltage falls below a predetermined rate deduced by a combination of the historic data and selected battery type.

Linear: Same as PWM but charges at a linear rate (not required on Mustangs)

NONE (off): charges until the current draw into the battery is nulled out and then holds that voltage regardless of acceleration/deceleration.

Today with our Mustang group we are going to see how much actual load the alternator presents on the engine on acceleration considering the lithium floating voltage is almost the same as the maximum voltage the alternator puts out (200amp alternator is used for this testing).

we suspect that ford puts crappy batteries in our system to save money, and turns off the charging rate on acceleration to meet the 339kw figure on paper…

I’ll get photos of the Forscan menus while I’m out to explain the settings better then report back.

hope this helps!

p.s. don’t take the voltage reading the vehicle dash reports as gospel either. The reading you see on your vehicle LCD guage is typically 0.5-1.0 volts under what’s actually being seen at the battery. This is because the display is designed to give an indication of the battery charge state, not the alternator charge state. It assumes we are all ignorant and only understand that the guage at the halfway point is good.

If you see the voltage display on the dash waver, it’s an indication that the battery isn’t fully charged. The display can’t accurately show the charge state when the alternator is feeding the battery current so it will go up when charging and down when displaying the charge state. Lithiums will do this for a little while after installation as the BMS collects data, then after a few startups it will go to a rock solid figure in between 13-13.5 (which is actually about 13.8-14.2v)

with a lithium battery that can report to your app what actually going on, it gives a much better understanding of what’s happening.
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Evolvd

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I’m actually heading out today to meet up with a large group of other Mustang enthusiasts that want to know the ins and outs of this system for performance testing as well.

long story short:

near the battery is a coil type current sensor on the negative lead. Any earth cables you want to connect directly to the negative terminal of the battery have to go through this coil for the BMS to accurately guage power usage.

near the main fuse box in the engine bay is another smaller coil sensor coming from the alternator positive lead, and this tells the BMS how much current is being created.

when replacing with a new battery you should reset the BMS via 5 high beam/3 brake method or Forscan. If replacing with a Lithium it is a must, as you have to clear the days in service and measured floating voltage history.

there is a way to remove the Bms control altogether and run the system as per a standard old School alternator that does 14.4v at all times (disconnect negative sensor and positive) but I haven’t done it to check the results long term (possible over temp/current of alternator)

instead, you go into Forscan, reset the Bms, then under the body control module settings (not as built, the tab underneath) change the battery type to an AGM variant (similar charge attributes, I chose the 70Ah one), and select the BMS to be NONE (three choices, the default is PWM, then there is linear and lastly NONE-OFF).

On first startup after the changes you will see your voltage charge rate going up to 14.4v, indicating the BMS is actually still doing things, however now it’s job is just simply to make sure that the battery is fully charged (at what ever voltage the two sensors indicate equaibrium). For a Lithiumthis ends up being around 13.5-13.8 volts.

After 8 hours of monitoring the battery for history to be accumulated, the BMS will now charge up the battery to full, and not stop charging until the negative sensor and positive sensor (plus other currents) equalize indicating a fully charged battery state.

it will then monitor and try to keep the current perfectly matched so you battery isn’t being used, and isn’t being overcharged.

every time you start your car, regardless of whether you drive off straight away or sit parked for a while, the BMS will ensure the battery is fully charged first, and it monitors the alternator to give a measured current that keeps both the battery and alternator in operating limits (good for hot climates).


Quick explanation of BMS modes;

PWM: a pulse width modulation signal is used to negotiate charging and the BMS will charge only if it thinks the system needs it. Because the system does not cater for lithiums, it can’t quite figure out the battery charge state, and assumes if it’s over 12.8v it’s ok… for lithiums this voltage is under 20% left (not ok). Typically the BMS will charge up the battery a little on startup, then stop charging when you start to move, only charging on decelerating and if the voltage falls below a predetermined rate deduced by a combination of the historic data and selected battery type.

Linear: Same as PWM but charges at a linear rate (not required on Mustangs)

NONE (off): charges until the current draw into the battery is nulled out and then holds that voltage regardless of acceleration/deceleration.

Today with our Mustang group we are going to see how much actual load the alternator presents on the engine on acceleration considering the lithium floating voltage is almost the same as the maximum voltage the alternator puts out (200amp alternator is used for this testing).

we suspect that ford puts crappy batteries in our system to save money, and turns off the charging rate on acceleration to meet the 339kw figure on paper…

I’ll get photos of the Forscan menus while I’m out to explain the settings better then report back.

hope this helps!

p.s. don’t take the voltage reading the vehicle dash reports as gospel either. The reading you see on your vehicle LCD guage is typically 0.5-1.0 volts under what’s actually being seen at the battery. This is because the display is designed to give an indication of the battery charge state, not the alternator charge state. It assumes we are all ignorant and only understand that the guage at the halfway point is good.

If you see the voltage display on the dash waver, it’s an indication that the battery isn’t fully charged. The display can’t accurately show the charge state when the alternator is feeding the battery current so it will go up when charging and down when displaying the charge state. Lithiums will do this for a little while after installation as the BMS collects data, then after a few startups it will go to a rock solid figure in between 13-13.5 (which is actually about 13.8-14.2v)

with a lithium battery that can report to your app what actually going on, it gives a much better understanding of what’s happening.
Yep I did all of those steps on my own. After about 3 months of messing with it I still couldn’t keep the BMS from freaking out and shutting things off. Forscan doesn’t actually turn off BMS, it’s always working in the background in some capacity. I disconnected the hall-effect sensors and that didn’t do anything either. And I did the BMS reset multiple times.
The Porsche guys had similar issues. Some of their cars had no issue with AG batteries with restart and some wouldn’t work at all…and we are talking about the exact same model and year cars.
 

Ben James

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:blush:Totally filling up this thread with unrelated topics


Yep I did all of those steps on my own. After about 3 months of messing with it I still couldn’t keep the BMS from freaking out and shutting things off. Forscan doesn’t actually turn off BMS, it’s always working in the background in some capacity. I disconnected the hall-effect sensors and that didn’t do anything either. And I did the BMS reset multiple times.
The Porsche guys had similar issues. Some of their cars had no issue with AG batteries with restart and some wouldn’t work at all…and we are talking about the exact same model and year cars.
Ok, that's weird. Working with Lithiumax and we've had some great results. I thought that the AG Batteries were good to go? The Lithiumax has the GEN 5 protocol in the BMS, which I remember some other brands a few years back didnt have yet and consequently ran into issues with earlier gen battery internal management systems. (cheap internal BMS that couldn't handle massive inputs of current on charge).

Just for information purposes I'll show you my setup in Forscan (Euro Spec)

Forscan 1.jpg


Pic above, loading up, connecting to a BBFLY (cheap) WiFi OBD2 adaptor.

Forscan 2.jpg


Opening up the measurments page, showing a readout of 14.67v on the Batt volts after 2 mins of engine running, which is the same as the Lithiumax app measurement (+/- 0.1v), and the dash display of the vehicle shows 13.5v.

Forscan 3.jpg


Pic Above - Heading to the BdyCM module config page (mouse pointer shows the icon selected) Highlighted line shows the correct BdyCM page to select.

Forscan 4.jpg


Selecting play in the bottom left corner of the sceen (pointer shows position), and reading the vehicle BdyCM info....

Forscan 5.jpg


.....and here you can see I have (previously) edited the selected line for the BMS, selecting NONE, on the line below 99% (to promote the highest voltage as possible at rest, and the battery type we selected is AGM 70AH 600CCA H6 case, which is the closest we can get to the properties of the Lithiumax RACE10 and RESTART9. Depending on the battery chosen, will depend on the BMS charging rate and duration in PWM and LIN mode, however we select it anyways for NONE mode.

After editing the selection the Forscan program will prompt you to restart the vehicle. The BMS program may take 2 or three key start/stops until it settles into the new routine. It is best to perform the BMS reset after this (it will remember the changes you have made) and install the Lithium battery close to 100% charge. When we first put in the battery it was only 60% and it sat there sucking 150amps of the alternator for 3 minutes straight, so we thought it would be less initial strain on the system if we installed it charged from that point on. :fingerscrossed:

The Lithiiumax RESTART9 has only 24AH worth of actual battery (24 amps for 1 hour, or 100 amps for 10 mins due to C rate slope), however its cells can be used for extended times well over the 100AMP mark (and its classified as a 'starter battery'). There are other Lithium battery cell types that are for storage use and advertise upwards of 100AH (prismatic). These cells cant disperse as much current continually, but have a much greater storage capability and are not recommended to be used as a starter battery.

ps testing today showed negligible difference in power provided the OEM battery was fully charged.

the lithium battery had three advantages, lightweight, longer operating time with on board diagnostics equipment (engine off), and stable 13.2 voltage with ability to see charge state through aftermarket app.

If you turn the BMS off with an OEM battery the response seems the same while the engine is running 👍🏼
 
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Evolvd

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:blush:Totally filling up this thread with unrelated topics




Ok, that's weird. Working with Lithiumax and we've had some great results. I thought that the AG Batteries were good to go? The Lithiumax has the GEN 5 protocol in the BMS, which I remember some other brands a few years back didnt have yet and consequently ran into issues with earlier gen battery internal management systems. (cheap internal BMS that couldn't handle massive inputs of current on charge).

Just for information purposes I'll show you my setup in Forscan (Euro Spec)

Forscan 1.jpg


Pic above, loading up, connecting to a BBFLY (cheap) WiFi OBD2 adaptor.

Forscan 2.jpg


Opening up the measurments page, showing a readout of 14.67v on the Batt volts after 2 mins of engine running, which is the same as the Lithiumax app measurement (+/- 0.1v), and the dash display of the vehicle shows 13.5v.

Forscan 3.jpg


Pic Above - Heading to the BdyCM module config page (mouse pointer shows the icon selected) Highlighted line shows the correct BdyCM page to select.

Forscan 4.jpg


Selecting play in the bottom left corner of the sceen (pointer shows position), and reading the vehicle BdyCM info....

Forscan 5.jpg


.....and here you can see I have (previously) edited the selected line for the BMS, selecting NONE, on the line below 99% (to promote the highest voltage as possible at rest, and the battery type we selected is AGM 70AH 600CCA H6 case, which is the closest we can get to the properties of the Lithiumax RACE10 and RESTART9. Depending on the battery chosen, will depend on the BMS charging rate and duration in PWM in LIN mode, however we select it anyways for NONE mode.

After editing the selection the Forscan program will prompt you to restart the vehicle. The BMS program may take 2 or three key start/stops until it settles into the new routine. It is best to perform the BMS reset after this (it will remember the changes you have made) and install the Lithium battery close to 100% charge. When we first put in the battery it was only 60% and it sat there sucking 150amps of the alternator for 3 minutes straight, so we thought it would be less initial strain on the system if we installed it charged from that point on. :fingerscrossed:

The Lithiiumax RESTART9 has only 24AH worth of actual battery (24 amps for 1 hour, or 100 amps for 10 mins due to C rate slope), however its cells can be used for extended times well over the 100AMP mark (and its classified as a 'starter battery'). There are other Lithium battery cell types that are for storage use and advertise upwards of 100AH (prismatic). These cells cant disperse as much current continually, but have a much greater storage capability and are not recommended to be used as a starter battery.

ps testing today showed negligible difference in power provided the OEM battery was fully charged.

the lithium battery had three advantages, lightweight, longer operating time with on board diagnostics equipment (engine off), and stable 13.2 voltage with ability to see charge state through aftermarket app.

If you turn the BMS off with an OEM battery the response seems the same while the engine is running 👍🏼
Wish I had met you 6 months ago when I was having all the issues lol. Oh well, I have a D4700 in the car now and the BMS is happy.
 

Ben James

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Wish I had met you 6 months ago when I was having all the issues lol. Oh well, I have a D4700 in the car now and the BMS is happy.
Lol I think 6 months ago we were still making evaluations so I wouldn't have been as much help anyways.
 

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krishelnino

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:blush:Totally filling up this thread with unrelated topics




Ok, that's weird. Working with Lithiumax and we've had some great results. I thought that the AG Batteries were good to go? The Lithiumax has the GEN 5 protocol in the BMS, which I remember some other brands a few years back didnt have yet and consequently ran into issues with earlier gen battery internal management systems. (cheap internal BMS that couldn't handle massive inputs of current on charge).

Just for information purposes I'll show you my setup in Forscan (Euro Spec)

Forscan 1.jpg


Pic above, loading up, connecting to a BBFLY (cheap) WiFi OBD2 adaptor.

Forscan 2.jpg


Opening up the measurments page, showing a readout of 14.67v on the Batt volts after 2 mins of engine running, which is the same as the Lithiumax app measurement (+/- 0.1v), and the dash display of the vehicle shows 13.5v.

Forscan 3.jpg


Pic Above - Heading to the BdyCM module config page (mouse pointer shows the icon selected) Highlighted line shows the correct BdyCM page to select.

Forscan 4.jpg


Selecting play in the bottom left corner of the sceen (pointer shows position), and reading the vehicle BdyCM info....

Forscan 5.jpg


.....and here you can see I have (previously) edited the selected line for the BMS, selecting NONE, on the line below 99% (to promote the highest voltage as possible at rest, and the battery type we selected is AGM 70AH 600CCA H6 case, which is the closest we can get to the properties of the Lithiumax RACE10 and RESTART9. Depending on the battery chosen, will depend on the BMS charging rate and duration in PWM and LIN mode, however we select it anyways for NONE mode.

After editing the selection the Forscan program will prompt you to restart the vehicle. The BMS program may take 2 or three key start/stops until it settles into the new routine. It is best to perform the BMS reset after this (it will remember the changes you have made) and install the Lithium battery close to 100% charge. When we first put in the battery it was only 60% and it sat there sucking 150amps of the alternator for 3 minutes straight, so we thought it would be less initial strain on the system if we installed it charged from that point on. :fingerscrossed:

The Lithiiumax RESTART9 has only 24AH worth of actual battery (24 amps for 1 hour, or 100 amps for 10 mins due to C rate slope), however its cells can be used for extended times well over the 100AMP mark (and its classified as a 'starter battery'). There are other Lithium battery cell types that are for storage use and advertise upwards of 100AH (prismatic). These cells cant disperse as much current continually, but have a much greater storage capability and are not recommended to be used as a starter battery.

ps testing today showed negligible difference in power provided the OEM battery was fully charged.

the lithium battery had three advantages, lightweight, longer operating time with on board diagnostics equipment (engine off), and stable 13.2 voltage with ability to see charge state through aftermarket app.

If you turn the BMS off with an OEM battery the response seems the same while the engine is running 👍🏼
Thank you for the detailed responses on this thread. I've learnt a lot reading through your posts.

I have an aftermarket audio system - Helix DSP.3 with Focal 165AS3 and a sub with dedicated amplifier. The stock battery failed after I left it sitting in winter for 1.5 months without starting it. After that I've gone through two 96R batteries with issues

I finally got a bigger AGM battery - ACDelco 47AGM with 660 CCA and 105 min RC (same specs XS Power D4700). Should I change the battery type and BMS in Forscan or should I just leave as is? I already did the BMS reset and got a new battery charger/tender to charge battery when car sits for longer periods
 
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Brigadir

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Thank you for the detailed responses on this thread. I've learnt a lot reading through your posts.

I have an aftermarket audio system - Helix DSP.3 with Focal 165AS3 and a sub with dedicated amplifier. The stock battery failed after I left it sitting in winter for 1.5 months without starting it. After that I've gone through two 96R batteries with issues

I finally got a bigger AGM battery - ACDelco 47AGM with 660 CCA and 105 min RC (same specs XS Power D4700). Should I change the battery type and BMS in Forscan or should I just leave as is? I already did the BMS reset and got a new battery charger/tender to charge battery when car sits for longer periods
Can’t answer that. So far as I know in general, there is regular and AGM types of battery. If you’ve changed the type, you have to update config in the car (it’s not related specifically to Mustang)
 

krishelnino

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Can’t answer that. So far as I know in general, there is regular and AGM types of battery. If you’ve changed the type, you have to update config in the car (it’s not related specifically to Mustang)
Thanks, also based on your experience with the Focal system...any tips/suggestion for tuning? I'm running this actively with a Helix DSP and can't seem to get it to sound right. I also swapped the Focal tweeters with Alpine as I felt the focal tweeters were too harsh
 
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Brigadir

Brigadir

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Thanks, also based on your experience with the Focal system...any tips/suggestion for tuning? I'm running this actively with a Helix DSP and can't seem to get it to sound right. I also swapped the Focal tweeters with Alpine as I felt the focal tweeters were too harsh
In my case the sound quality is good. One issue that I encountered couple months later - the speakers in the doors got rusted from rear side. It’s because that area is accessible for draining water and Focal speakers are larger than the factory ones (at least the mids which are on top side of the door cart). I fixed it placing there a piece of plastic film to cover the speaker.

IMG_0846.jpeg


IMG_0845.jpeg
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