22 GT and Mach down 10hp… Is this true?

[Toretto]

Have to lower the power from '22 to when the electric come out, to make it look so much faster than the v8 car, hoping to push most into the ev model. Buyers that buy off the spec sheet, and there is a bunch, will buy the "on paper" more powerful ev, because the ice got it's balls chopped off.

It's like what they did with the 3.7L V6 when they launched the Ecoboost platform in 2015. The V6 was pushing 305hp (maybe even 310) but they detuned it to 300 so that the Eco's 310hp looks better.

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[UpACurb]

Maybe the extra 10hp caused the ticking and they were tired of seeing us all complaining on the forums? : )

 

[RocketGuy3]

Yeah, but that's what we've been constantly hearing for the past three decades: we will. It's always in future tense.
Let me know when we are there.


#1 doesn't help with long trips.
#2 to #6 have nothing whatsoever to do with our discussion.
#6 is due to the tax system, which will surely change.


If it's about emissions, then it could indeed be the GPF, as I suspected.
On the plus side, I love how my tailpipes are absolutely clean after six thousand miles. Really, perfectly clean. It's just the bare metal, they look the same on the inside as they do on the outside. I've never seen this in any of my previous cars. The GPF does seem to do a great job.

I saw practicality as a sticking point, so I brought up practical advantages to EVs.

Re #1: 99% of 99% of people's trips are not longer than half the range of any halfway decent modern EV... If you need to go further, there are other options. Range anxiety doesn't completely undo the practicality advantages of EVs for most people.

Re #6: Disagree, it is true because EVs use less energy per unit of distance traveled than ICE's do. And yes, this is true even if the electricity comes from gas or goal power plants.

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

I love how this agenda for electric cars is getting pushed so hard when the US infrastructure is not ready at all for this. When I can take an electric car from LA to NY and have multiple charging stations available EVERYWHERE is when I will be comfortable owning an electric car. Hybrids make sense right now but full electric cars do not unless you're required to stay in city driving only or make small trips.

I'm no EV convert, but give me a break on the LA to NY thing. How many times have you made that drive?

 

[Zelek]

I'm no EV convert, but give me a break on the LA to NY thing. How many times have you made that drive?

It was just an example but I've gone from Austin to Minneapolis before as boring as that drive is. Last thing I would do it in is an electric car right now. D.C. to Austin as well.

 

[Charlemagne]

What if they could match everything great about a naturally aspirated vehicle in a turbocharged vehicle? They are super close. If tuned correctly and the right turbo size and type of turbo is selected, the power curve can be super close to linear just like a naturally aspirated vehicle.

It won't ever change that it's a more complex system with more possible points of failure.

 

[WildHorse]

Actually what happened was the government mandated a change in how the HP was determined. There wasn't any mechanical change to cause the drop in advertised power, the engines themselves were the same as previous years, but now they had to pick sample engines off the assembly line to test, and average the numbers from all of them to get the HP number they were allowed to use for advertising purposes.

When they went to SAE ratings (from BHP) in 1972, most manufacturers dropped compression ratios, some others more mundane cam timing, timing, etc. Take the 1972 Magnum 440 280 hp SAE from the previous years 375 hp BHP. 100 hp drop from alternator / power steering / water pump.. not likely. Then again, maybe haha.

 

[Orange devil]

The Ford representative noted that "changes were made to meet more stringent LEV III regulatory emissions requirements that resulted in a horsepower and torque reduction for the 5.0-liter V-8 engine."

 

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Even though it's only about 2% power reduction, I'd still be disappointed if I had plans to order a '22 GT or Mach 1. Hard not to be disappointed in going the wrong direction when it comes to horsepower.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think you're failing to see the forest through the trees.

For one, parking lots can be redesigned/rebuilt to have charging ports at each parking spot (many already have).

Nowhere near practical in existing urban neighborhoods almost anywhere, let alone those in the Northeast and Rustbelt. Add street recharging in many of those places and you just added "charging rage" to the already existing matter of "parking rage". Need I mention 'inner city gun violence' here?

For another, a huge chunk of the population already lives in places that can charge their EVs as it is, and for those people, EVs are practically superior in almost every way:

Cherry-picking the situations where it could work is not the way toward any universal solutions here.

5. Faster in a straight line

And that's exactly why I've been calling it "kool-aid" for the past several years, here and elsewhere. Get the engine-centric enthusiasts on board first with that, no matter how heavy the car needs to be or how stupid the power level ends up being. Never mind when some agency decides that there's big enough EV market penetration to start dialing back the insane EV power levels that have already shown up in the name of overall energy conservation. It'd be a bad bet to ignore this downstream possibility, when you wouldn't even have the straightline performance bragging rights to fall back on any more.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

What if they could match everything great about a naturally aspirated vehicle in a turbocharged vehicle? They are super close. If tuned correctly and the right turbo size and type of turbo is selected, the power curve can be super close to linear just like a naturally aspirated vehicle.

Peak power/torque numbers may well be close, but the power delivery (including "linearity" is not. Turbocharged engines can still be caught off-boost in certain situations - it's inherent to exhaust-driven forced induction even with dual-scroll turbocharging. And there's still the matter of managing the extra heat developed when running hard for extended periods of time.

These aspects are much more noticeable when running hard (HPDE and up in particular) - or when pulling into a side street whose posted speed requires downshifting.


For reference, we're on our second turbocharged car (a 2019), which has come a long way from the first (a 2010 from the same mfr) but which can still be caught off boost and leave us with 3400 lbs of car plus anywhere from about 100 lbs to 600 lbs of passengers powered by a 2.0L engine that's basically running as a NA engine. A real nuisance with some risk at times, even though it only lasts for a few seconds


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Even though it's only about 2% power reduction, I'd still be disappointed if I had plans to order a '22 GT or Mach 1. Hard not to be disappointed in going the wrong direction when it comes to horsepower.

And that's the problem with hanging your hat on advertised peak engine numbers (aka "bragging rights").

In reality, you're still going to use as much or as little throttle as needed in virtually all of your driving. Like maybe 2% more in this case, which you'll never notice as it's happening, and doesn't make for much of a bragging right for the guys with 10 more HP than the 2022 is getting.


Norm

 

[Jimmy Dean]

Peak power/torque numbers may well be close, but the power delivery (including "linearity" is not. Turbocharged engines can still be caught off-boost in certain situations - it's inherent to exhaust-driven forced induction even with dual-scroll turbocharging. And there's still the matter of managing the extra heat developed when running hard for extended periods of time.

These aspects are much more noticeable when running hard (HPDE and up in particular) - or when pulling into a side street whose posted speed requires downshifting.


For reference, we're on our second turbocharged car (a 2019), which has come a long way from the first (a 2010 from the same mfr) but which can still be caught off boost and leave us with 3400 lbs of car plus anywhere from about 100 lbs to 600 lbs of passengers powered by a 2.0L engine that's basically running as a NA engine. A real nuisance with some risk at times, even though it only lasts for a few seconds


Norm

extended periods of time? LOL. my turbo goes over temp limits within about 4 seconds of really getting on it. but that is an 88mm turbo pushing 1000 ft lbs and an 8000 lb truck., I can hit 1600°F with a half throttle pull. also running injectors, bored out, tuned, she really needs a meth/water kit.

 

[MustangorCamaro]

This is now a 15 second 1/4 mile car. Watch out for Civic Si's and similar ilk. They may walk a 22.

 

[ChitownStang]

And that's the problem with hanging your hat on advertised peak engine numbers (aka "bragging rights").

In reality, you're still going to use as much or as little throttle as needed in virtually all of your driving. Like maybe 2% more in this case, which you'll never notice as it's happening, and doesn't make for much of a bragging right for the guys with 10 more HP than the 2022 is getting.


Norm

Norm, if you were given the choice of a 480/420 HP/TQ Mach 1 or a 470/410 Mach 1, which would you chose or you wouldn't care?? Cmon man, people love the #'s and specs, its kinda a big deal for car guys! lol
Too me, this is bad news for us Muscle car guys... we peaked and are going downhill now.

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